posted March 29, 2004 07:08 AM
I'll tell you what I don't like about the manufacturer's break-in instructions. Waiting 1000 miles to hit redline. At 13,000 RPM the rods will stretch a lot more than at 6000 RPM. So that means the piston rings get to see a brand new part of the cylinder bore that hasn't been touched yet, while everything else is obviously well broken in. Just doesn't seem right to me. I think a few excursions to redline along the way are definitely in order.
Reminds me of a friend who used to race for the speed record at Bonneville. He was excited one year to find a 427 from a "little old lady" car that had never ever been run hard, so he didn't even touch the bottom end of the motor. Busted all of the top piston rings on his first top speed pass - the rings didn't like going past the worn-in area where they had always run.
So according the the mfr, you go 1000 miles real easy to break everything in, then after its all real well broken in, run to redline stretching parts and really building some ring-seating sealing pressure for the first time. Nope, I just don't like it.
The other thing is how much can you really vary the engine speed when 4k in top gear just gets you over 60mph. Seems like you just end up with a whole lot of miles right around 4k RPM that way, or get your ass run over around here.
Not saying that the mfr's suggestion won't work, it just doesn't seem too logical to me. The last time I dealt with a group of Japanese engineers, they sent me a "blessing" on a piece of paper that I was supposed to hang over the diesel engine in our test cell. Really.
posted March 29, 2004 07:18 AM
Well... I'm following the recommendations.... This thread need's a caveat... The opinions expressed in here are just opinions from people on the 'net....
the CORRECT break in procedure would be those specified by the manufacturer. The little Japanese men in white lab coats who designed and built the thing.
Lurkers beware! Labcoat/engineer vs opinion from random guy on Internet.
No offence to the people posting here because this is truly an interesting read...
But yer not gonna get me to NOT follow the instructions on this thing. Remember... I've personally been to KMC and seen the work that they are doing. I have a hard time believing anyone here has facilities and reasources greater than or even equivalent to KMC's.
All we need is a fence to lean on and a case of beer to drink and this would be like King of the Hill ____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted March 29, 2004 07:21 AM
Interesting the comments on 60mph. I just did a 100 mile ride yesterday where the average speed worked out to 30mph. Backroad scratchin is a lot more fun than freeway drone in any case! ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
Good point. Unless you know better, or have heard different from someone you trust, there is no reason to deviate from the manufacturer's instructions. After all, they did produce a completely kick-ass motorcycle.
I won't even list my qualifications and experience that lead to my opinions, because anybody can say they are anything on the 'net. Just wondering if any others out there share my point of view on these particular items? Like you said, this is interesting stuff.
posted March 29, 2004 08:11 AM
Break it in by the book, that's the best way. They spend lot's of R&D money on what's best. You won't be sorry.
____________
Life's Been Good to Me!!!!!!!!!
Good point. Unless you know better, or have heard different from someone you trust, there is no reason to deviate from the manufacturer's instructions. After all, they did produce a completely kick-ass motorcycle.
I won't even list my qualifications and experience that lead to my opinions, because anybody can say they are anything on the 'net. Just wondering if any others out there share my point of view on these particular items? Like you said, this is interesting stuff.
yep i agree. Its to big step to go from 6000rpm at 1000miles to ful throtle and redline at 13000 rpm. I wish that we could get an official kawasaki explanation on this subject. And more info in manual bout break in process not just 500 miles at 4 and another 500 to 6
____________
ride it like u stole it
the CORRECT break in procedure would be those specified by the manufacturer. The little Japanese men in white lab coats who designed and built the thing.
Lurkers beware! Labcoat/engineer vs opinion from random guy on Internet.
But yer not gonna get me to NOT follow the instructions on this thing. Remember... I've personally been to KMC and seen the work that they are doing. I have a hard time believing anyone here has facilities and reasources greater than or even equivalent to KMC's.D
You have a very good point...After all they did design it..I would like them to give an explanation as to why they suggest those parameters in the manual so we would all have a little more understanding...
In my RC51 manual the break in procedure doesn't even state an rpm level to keep it at..
Also..The manual suggests oil changes every 4,000 miles and an oil filter change every 8,000 miles...Well, To me 4,000 miles is a little too long of a period to change the oil in a high revving motorcycle so I change my oil AND oil Filter at 2,000 miles even with synthetic oil...I can't imagine leaving an oil filter in a high performance motorcycle for 8,000 miles...It certainly won't hurt it to change it earlier....This is what makes me question the break in instructions...
It would be nice if we could get the manufacturers to give us a more detailed explaination.
posted March 30, 2004 05:53 AM
I guess what I have learned from all I have come across is first of all piston rings in a new engine need to be seated with sufficient pressure; weather 4,000 rpm or less for 500 miles and then 6,000 rpm max for another 500 is sufficient? I do not have the expertise to refute that. Just wonder if Kawasaki needs to have lower than needed limits cause if they do not people would abuse more just like we abuse the speed limits all over the country. Then it becomes a political issue driven from management and not strictly from the builders within Kawasaki.
Worst (claimed) thing that happens when you do not provide a break in with enough pressure to rings is a engine that is a little slower and may burn oil in years down the road and Kawasaki will sell you parts or another bike or you live with it like I do with my ZX-11 broken in by the book . Does that hurt them much?you can answer that for yourself.
Worst thing that Happens when people abuse and breakin too fast is that Kawasaki gets calls from customer wanting to get new engine and why would they advocate a break in that is condusive to that?Iwould not if it was my company.
So does a break in that provides best seating is what you tell your large number of customers? I do not think all R&D is mechanical; some R&D is political due to warranty issues.
I would like to have my money back for my second gear problems that also occured on a bunch of early ZX-11;Never will happen and the answer is obvious;no warranty at the time . Or how about third bearing failure on ZX-11; Why were there no recalls?
there are money issues on why companies create policies its called "cover their backs"
Just a thought ;I do not see anyone going too wrong with manufacturers recomendations; it is still our right to question and understand the best we can. We the consumer have a right to ask questions.
well I am out of time have company training to go to.
posted March 30, 2004 06:05 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 30 Mar 2004 06:07
I think we are breaking in many more components than just the piston rings here.... there are a lot of little bits inside that engine.. they all have sharp edges and they need to mate themselves to each other... I honestly dont believe that this break in procedure is "political due to warranty issues" .. remember... there are many industry professionals posting information here... some of them even work at KMC. They've given me a pretty good explantation of the needs for the break in and why etc...
Let's just say, to add to what I said above, that there aren't any aliens landing on my gas-tank...
in other words there's no conspiracy here!
Ice1 said it quite well...
quote:Unless you know better, or have heard different from someone you trust, there is no reason to deviate from the manufacturer's instructions. After all, they did produce a completely kick-ass motorcycle.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted March 31, 2004 07:17 AM
With respect to any manufacturer telling you to run a new literbike to near redline to help in seating the rings, forget about it. Since in first gear at 13,000 you'll be doing about 90, and few are going to be on a track for break in, it ain't going to happen.
quote:With respect to any manufacturer telling you to run a new literbike to near redline to help in seating the rings, forget about it. Since in first gear at 13,000 you'll be doing about 90, and few are going to be on a track for break in, it ain't going to happen.
That's right...If they told you that then they could be held liable for accidents and speeding tickets...So they tell you a way that will compromise and try and provide a way to avoid immediate problems...
Your most likely not going to have any dramatic engine failures with an easy break in...
But.....You may end up with a bike that burns oil and produces less power than all other bikes of the same kind and in the LONG run be ultimately less reliable...By that time your warranty is out.
Well, I don't recommned running it to redline right away...But only brief spurts
quote:Break it in by the book, that's the best way. They spend lot's of R&D money on what's best. You won't be sorry.
I wouldn't do everything by the book.....My Honda manual recommends oil filter changes every 8,000 miles which is completely rediculous...Especially on a high perfoirmance motorcycle...
posted April 01, 2004 05:55 AM
I agree with you whitesands; judgment should be used and being informed with a little self initiative allows for good judgment.
Impossible to convince everyone and I do not blame them ;Manufacturers could loosen up a little but I do not expect that after seeing they are recomending same old recipe with hardly any guidlines for break in on bikes which redline so much higher and have different crosshatching finish on cylinders walls than in the old days.
Not the best that new theories and methods of break in are better technicaly supported. If same old way is better then lets have some detailed technical support or remains in question. Just do it this way cause I say so or always have is lame anymore seems to me. There is a methodical correct way which just is not covered by people selling some high performance bikes.
Crazy but does not hurt profits of the company so at least that makes sense.
____________
Salsa1
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posted March 29, 2004 07:08 AM
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