posted March 25, 2004 06:22 AM
Edited By: edgar ayoroa on 25 Mar 2004 13:20
Anyone breaking in ZX-10R too easy? Hi all; first post. Purchased Black ZX-10R monday. Feel like I am only one that has read articles explaining why a varied break in and specific guidelines is best for new engine. manufacturer owners manual does not say much on subject.
. Am more convinced from reading articles from engine builders and others that too easy break-in can be detrimental.
I have editid this post to avoid an insurection. But you can take it for what its worth.have been driving bikes for thirty years and am always open to learn more with the right people. Please provide basis for your ideas if possible. preferably technical.
thoughts? Please share
this is not new subject right? not trying to convince anyone how to choose. Not saying ZX-10R is my first bike either. My past two bikes for past 14 years have been two ZX-11's. GPZ1100 before that.
Having to deal with child support changes issues since yesterday.(she may get more money?)Maybe I was not paying attention to what I first posted.
Hope post is of some value.
____________
Latin Shuffle
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted March 25, 2004 07:30 AM
Go ahead, break it in any way you want, it's your bike. You go fight the good fight with your dealer... Just think, they might actually cruise the web and check out this site! ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted March 25, 2004 07:45 AM
Edited By: edgar ayoroa on 25 Mar 2004 08:14
I had to explain to my dealer what a ZX-11 is doubt any problems with them cruising web ;am not new to maintenance just want to possibly generate intelligent discussion....
Not saying I am tearing into redline just choosing middle ground of extreem theory vs too conservative steady driving which could potentially create problems in the long run.
No worries here; just figure there might be a few who can play ball with this for good reasons. Muzzy is a fool?
Check out for yourself; How Should I Break-In My New ZX-6R?
By Rob Lee
Although there is no one best engine break-in procedure, there are some generally accepted guidelines. In short, vary the engine load, use short bursts of acceleration, allow the engine to cool between rides, and use conventional motor oil. Do not lug or overheat the engine or redline it right away.
In the article "Give It a Break-In" in their February 1991 issue, Motorcyclist asked four top engine builders how to break-in a new engine for peak power output and optimum life. The experts were Jim Leonard and Al Ludington of Vance & Hines, Nigel Patrick of Patrick Racing, and Rob Muzzy of Muzzys. What follows is a summary of their break-in recommendations.
Initial start
(If the engine was run at the factory or properly set up by the dealer, skip this step)
Start the engine only to bring the oil and coolant up to temperature with little or no load. Stop the engine and check for oil and coolant leaks. Allow the engine to cool to ambient temperature.
First ride
Ride for 10 to 15 minutes at 3,000 to 5,000 rpm. Vary the engine load and avoid top gear. Then, allow the engine to cool to ambient temperature.
Second ride
Ride for 10 to 15 minutes at 5,000 to 7,000 rpm. Vary the engine load, use short bursts of acceleration, and avoid top gear. Then, allow the engine to cool to ambient temperature.
Third ride
Ride for 10 to 15 minutes at a maximum of 8,000 to 9,000 rpm. Vary the engine load, use short bursts of acceleration, and avoid top gear. While the engine is warm, change the oil and filter—use high-quality low-viscosity conventional oil such as Valvoline SAE 30 motor oil. Do not use synthetic motor oil.
Subsequent rides
Ride for 15 to 20 minutes gradually increasing the engine load toward redline. Avoid lugging the engine but rev it freely, especially in the lower gears.
After 250 to 500 miles, check valve clearance. After 500 miles, check the steering. After 500 to 1,500 miles on conventional motor oil, change to synthetic motor oil.
posted March 25, 2004 08:23 AM
Just picked up our ZX10R for this year's race season, which has already started. I don't have much of a choice but break it in hard, at least compared to Kawi's recommendations.
The last new racebike that we put on the track after about 100 street miles went 3 seasons and won a regional championship before it needed a teardown, and that was only because it lost 5th gear. Most of the racers I know try to keep the revs down by short shifting and lug the motor at low revs until it has a few hours on it. We gradually increase RPM's every time out. The other thing that we do is let it cool down completely (a couple hours) each time it is run. Complete heat cycles.
But I have also seen two different bikes (GSXR750 and R6) that were raced HARD right out of the box that failed the first day. One was an endurance team that bought a new GSXR just for the motor to swap in place of their failed endurance motor the night before a race. It went about an hour, but it was the cam chain tensioner that failed. Fixed under warranty/recall The other was a squid who didn't want to pay to title the new R6. Brought it to the track prepped with 0 miles on it and raced it all day. It was smoking like crazy by sundown.
But I'm not afraid to race a new bike after a couple hours of "reserved" riding and a few heat cycles.
posted March 25, 2004 08:23 AM
I always break mine in by factory recommendations, I guess it gives me a certain price of mind.
____________
Life's Been Good to Me!!!!!!!!!
posted March 25, 2004 08:24 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 25 Mar 2004 08:25
Here's the deal.... follow the instructions provided to you by the small japanese men in white labcoats who made the bike you are going to "break in". They know what they are doing. More than one member of this forum works for KMC and they will tell you the same.
You've been warned.
BTW.... since Rob Muzzy posts on this site himself, I'm sure he could tell you his own procedure ala THIS YEAR ( 2004! ) rather than that article in 1991.... oh, and if Rob blows up his engine.. he'll just take it apart and rebuild it (or tell his minions to fix it for him) ... he wouldnt go to his dealer and try to get it fixed under the "good times warranty" plan. Think about that too.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted March 25, 2004 09:02 AM
If you search back a little, you'll see we've had lot's of recent info about this subject. Simple comment - Follow Swft's input. It's your bike, do what you want with it. Or follow Fish's advise and break in as the OEM recomends/advises. Not sure how you've come by the idea of being convinced harder than OEM recommends is best? Seems like a pretty easy decision to make one way or the other.
posted March 25, 2004 09:31 AM
Okay, I'll bite. Edgar, like everyone has said, obviously the decision is strictly yours in the end. I personally don't believe that motors need a long "wearing in" process. The machining tolerances are so fine these days (check out the CNC polished ports on the new 10R), that surfaces fit with fine precision right out of the crate. But, it is still metal against metal and because of that fact, there are some minor precautions to take right off.
First, it seems logical that heat cycles are still important. Metals lose strength if they are quickly brought up to temp and held there for extended time. Think about a new drill bit (or a new dremel cutting tool). If you take it out of the package and go ballistic, the bit burns out and loses its edge right away. But, if you work it in slowly, giving it multiple heat cycles first, you'll build in a certain hardening that only comes from operating the tool in the conditions you will use it (unlike hardening at the factory). Thus, keep this in mind when breaking in the metals of your engine.
Second, the rings, rods, pins, bearings, valvetrain, etc. all need to get used to one another. I can't see how this would take 1000 miles like the manual says, but it certainly requires some amount of time.
Third, you need to watch your ass on these new bikes. I think part of the suggested "break in" is a break in for the rider to become acclimated to the bike. Remember, the brakes are new, the tires have mold release compound on them, you don't know the bike, etc. All of this contributes to a fairly dangerous situation if the manufacturer's said "here you go, have fun!" The manufacturers retain some mode of self-responsibility if they caution you to take it easy for the first thousand miles and then gradually work up to the full experience.
With all of that said, use your best judgment. 100 miles is likely more than enough if you follow the general guidelines above and those set out by the bikebuilder's advice in a prior post. But, 100 miles might not be enough if you never take it above 4,000 rpms during that period. You'll never get the high end heat cycle and metal interfacing that way (metals expand and mate differently at different heat temps and engine speeds - try to cover the whole spectrum.
Good luck with your new toy and above all, stay safe.
posted March 25, 2004 10:14 AM
Edited By: edgar ayoroa on 25 Mar 2004 13:03
Ok "hard" is loose word to use; leads to wrong ideas. My owners manual says nothing about varing speeds at least there should be no question there I hope.
; I think many guys maintain constant speeds and just try to rack up number of miles since little or no guidlines are provided from owners manual (I just ask myself why not? maybe it does not matter to some but there is info from experienced engine builders giving technical guidlines which does not abuse engine and offers more information on break-in. I do not listen to every person that wants to give me their opinion or tradition without a sound technical basis ;should I? do you? am just inquiring and listening. Owners manual is vague I have no problem telling whoever this in Kawasaki. Have you seen owners manual speak of heat cycles or varied speeds?
Yes owners manual should be adheared to but there seems to be more to know and do for optimum results.
I can't see what is problem in trying to find out what is best for engine or how that will lead to engine failure. I never said I am doing anything just searching for info. Thanks for tip on searching for past discussions I will do that. Just curious have you heard the claim that glazing cylinder walls can occur and subsequent oil consumption if not broken in properly . Small japaneze men in labcoats do not pay my bills. they do what they are told to do and told to say for all I know.
I am an Electrical Engineer with 15 years I will not say where ;but was lead engineer in "Reliability Centered Maintenance" effort in my company for 2.5 years . (over 120 electrical substations) Lots of new ideas and lessons learned from an industry thats over 100 years old were presented for changes.
When Reliability centered maintenance came out few years back (from aircraft industry) one of the hardest issues to sell to old field hands was the fact that some equipment can be allowed to fail and where to refocus maintenance in a power system; every one felt power system will come appart and got the ceiling falling from the sky attitude; a cultural change was needed and that took time. just an example of our society doing things not as efficient as possible for years and wanting to continue to do things the same old way regardless. point is people are always resistant to change. Iknow...;some things should not change. So be it.
You read only part of a Rob Muzzy article from Motocyclist 1991. Other articles on web explain in detail where I am coming from. I just wondered what people on this forum might think about this subject. Just came into this with an open mind. I hope Mr Muzzy or others who know speak up on this subject; It will enlighten I believe. A 2004 version on this subject will favor some of these issues even more than for 1991.
Not trying to make waves neither in manufacturers politics or anybody elses I know how that goes.
Well I will entertain other subjects seeing that this could get someone in trouble and that is not the intention of this inquiry.
Thanks for responses.
Have a great day-no hard feelings from me anyways.
posted March 25, 2004 11:39 AM
Edited By: guamaniac on 25 Mar 2004 11:40
Read this thread, same board and Mr. Muzzy does respond. I had the same question and the same link from Rob Lee. I guess it just comes down to doing what you are comfortable with and able to live with. Me personally I've had 4 Kawi's. 3 of them were new.. 007R, 036R and now this one... I broke both of them in by the book and never had any problems...but did read alot about other break-in theories...was interested so I asked... I'm not sure if I could take that chance with this bike so I'm breaking it in by the book...but with varying throttle and heatcyles....
posted March 25, 2004 11:43 AM
This is why I've only bought new street bikes the last 25 years. At least I know how they've been broke in (and ridden)(and maintained) - I guess you can say I don't trust most people to take care of their bikes
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
posted March 25, 2004 11:43 AM
This is why I've only bought new street bikes the last 25 years. At least I know how they've been broke in (and ridden)(and maintained) - I guess you can say I don't trust most people to take care of their bikes
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
posted March 25, 2004 12:59 PM
Heres my 2 pennys worth...
Since the late 1970's I've owned and broken-in 12 new, multi cylinder sports bikes.
From Z1 to ZX-12R, And I always break em in reasonably hard, with my new 10R (that is going in for its first service tomorrow), being no exception.
First off, I always ensure that the engine is good and warm before exceeding 3krpm.
First 100 miles - I rev to about 4krpm ensuring that I'm using the gearbox and not labouring the motor in top gear.
100-200 miles - Again I go for a ride on tight and twisty roads, varying the revs upto 5krpm, and working the gearbox.
200-500 miles - I'm still keeping the revs to around 5krpm, however, I'm now doing short bursts of acceleration upto the redline in the lower gears, and still avoiding sustained top gear runs.
500/600 miles - In for oil change.
Upto 1000 miles - I'm using all the rev range, and working the gears, but still trying not to the labour the engine in top gear for long periods.
1000+ - Anything goes.....
like I said, I've been doing it like this for 25 years, and I've always had a faster and more reliable motor than my mates who have broken there bikes in by the book!!!!
posted March 25, 2004 04:27 PM
Break In Period Again only my oppinion,
I've owned 8 new bikes (gixxers/ZX9/ZX6/R1/Benelli TRE etc etc) in 10 years and run them all in hard.
I tend to take the first 50 miles at no more than 7000rpm and then cane them, but I always change the oil at 200miles.
The only problem I have ever had was with the Benelli Tornado which was junk anyway...the engine internals resembled something from a Massey Ferguson!!.
So there you go - you pays your money and you take the gamble. The bike is under warranty if it fails.
posted March 25, 2004 08:05 PM
Hehe.... I like the assumption about Rob Muzzy waiting until the motor blows to rebuild it.....lol
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posted March 25, 2004 09:10 PM
(shhh. My aprilia's ECUs data can, and was down loaded. Yes, I bumped the rev limiter in 1st at 800+ miles, I can't lie about it?)
Do the the Asian bikes have that option?
____________
(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
posted March 26, 2004 12:50 AM
Edited By: whitesands26 on 26 Mar 2004 00:54
The description of the guys racing their new bikes is not a good example of a hard break in....
A hard break in is a very vague term...The hard break in has a process...A structured method...Not just going out and taking it to redline in every gear...There is a methodical approach and if it's done in this way I can't see how any mechanical problems would arise if it's followed correctly.
When it's brand new, with a petroleum based oil (non synthetic) put in the bike, start the bike up and let it warm up for a few minutes...Maybe 145 to 150 degrees F...Turn it off and let it cool comepletely.
Keep in mind that every ride hereafter during the break in process you need to vary the rpms at each stage of the break in period followed by a subsequent cool down. Also, avoid lugging the motor which means you need to be in the proper rpm range for the gear you're in. Keep an eye on your temp gauge during the entire process...Allow the bike to warm up thoroughly before riding...Not just during break in but the entire life of your bike...Just don't start up a cold bike and start blipping the throttle. The piston expands at a faster rate than the cylinder this is why you want to warm it up before you rev it...
When first puchase your bike I recommend that you go and WATCH the service guys prep it and demand that YOU are the only one to start the bike up...Many times those guys start up a brand new bike right after they put oil in it and rev it up before letting it thoroughly warm up. By being there you can ensure this won't happen.
1. 10 minute ride and do not exceed 5k...Stay in the lower gears...Accelerate...shift....accelerate...decelerate....In that fashion.(you can't do this just anywhere but basically just try to vary the rpm in the 5k range....Let it cool down completely.
2. Repeat...
3. 10 to 15 minutes...Keep an eye on the temp gauge and bring it up to 6 or 7k in the first 3 gears a few times but DO NOT maintain the 6k to 7k rpm....Bring the rpm up to that level with a very short burst of acceleration and let off as soon as you touch that rpm level and bring the rpms back down.
4. Same as above with a couple of BRIEF runs to 8,000 rpm in the 1rst couple of gears. let it cool down...
5. Repeat...Avoid redline..Allow it to cool down.
6. Repeat one more heat cycle with the above guidelines still followed for good measure..let it cool down completely.
After this heat cycle/ring seating period ride like normal...Vary rpms, avoid lugging and avoid redline at least until you've got 300 miles..If you do redline it do it only for a very brief period. Also, it is a good idea to change the oil after 100 miles and get out the metal flakings that will come off the internals of a new engine....When you drain the oil you will notice little shiny metal flakings floating around.
After 1,000 miles, like the above poster stated you're pretty much all clear...
The problem is excessive HEAT...You do not want excessive heat to build up but you want enough RPM to seat the rings..This is the reason for the brief 10 minute runs and the cool down period. A hard break in can cause alot of heat build up...But if you can bring the RPMs up and avoid the excessive HEAT then you can seat the rings in properly and avoid reliablity problems associated with excessive HEAT too soon in a new engine.
posted March 26, 2004 06:13 AM
Edited By: edgar ayoroa on 26 Mar 2004 06:18
Not being an engine builder myself ;I opened myself up to listen to other ZX-10R owners experience and opinions. It has been interesting. Safety should be number one and by all means no one should be racing their new engines before a decent and proper break-in.
I know that in the electric power industry there is a lot of variation as to how people take care of their high dollar equipment. sometimes so different it is not funny. People often discover ways to improve; some don't. I say look in depth why? or why not? Manufacturing processes and materials used are changing.
Again thanks for info;helps me anyhow. Hope this thread helps others be better informed. Thats the intent.
Thanks to veteran forum members for bearing possibly old news.
posted March 28, 2004 05:29 AM
Huh today i did first 50 miles and the bike is awsome. But break it in by the book? Where ? i cant do that here couse i will get run over by cars etc. And i dont wanna cruising with 4000rpm which is hardly enough to keep with the traffic. Its really hard work. I tend to do heat cycles and run it more freely. I did today up to 6000rpm and next time i will try 1000 more. Just think that is unsafe to run it 800miles up to 4000rpm which in top gear is only round 105kph. I did own few new bikes and never had such tough breakin period as on this. I also had 96 9r and as i remember didnt have such hard breakin. And it went perfect for 30000miles as i had it and many track days included. As for my previus bike cbr600fs in user manual said only to not run it hard first 500miles and dont keep steady revs.
Damn i wont be able to do it by the book. TOO HARD! And dont think it will do it much good trotling around with 104kph and risk gettin hit from behind.
____________
ride it like u stole it
posted March 28, 2004 01:12 PM
Break-in is a painful process but I like what was stated about being good for the rider as well as the bike. To me its worth sticking to what the factory recommends, why even take a chance? Just my .02 cents.
posted March 28, 2004 11:57 PM
4,000 rpm is a really hard range to keep it in..Especially for a bike that redlines at over 12,000 rpm....One thing I wouldn't do is cruise 4th 5th or 6th gear at 4,000 because you would border on lugging it which is more dertimental to a new engine....My RC51 redlines at 10,000 rpm and cruising the highways I keep it in the 4,500 to 5,000 range...Even with a redline much lower than the ZX10 I wouldn't cruise my RC51 around in 4th gear at 4,000 RPM let alone 5th or 6th because it will show lugging symptoms...Contrast this with the ZX10R redlining at 13,000 or so and and I can see how difficult it would be to keep it under 4k.
The RPM's aren't bad for the engine...It's the Heat that can be generated at those levels...That's why when you operate in the confines of a "hard break in" you need to limit the amount of time you spend riding it. However, going too slow can generate alot of heat as well because there's not enough air flowing into the radiators to cool it down.
I don't see how you could go wrong with following the manufacturer suggestions...IMHO they should give a little more detail as to the why's and how's of break in. Just keep an eye on those temperature gauges and don't let it get too hot.
One thing that some manufactuers suggest is to vary the rpm from acceleration to deceleration is because under both conditions it allows the rings to seat....As you accelerate the gas pressures increase forcing the rings to expand to take the shape of the cylinder wall...Correctly seated rings will ensure that you are getting proper compression (HP) and avoid blowby that can contaminate the engine oil and cause your bike to burn oil (reliability).
Most likely, you really can't go wrong following the owners manual and you won't have any problems...Just try not to lug it or let it get too hot on the new engine
posted March 29, 2004 12:47 AM
Gr8 writeup!
Yes im keepin an eye on temp. and as i ride it is at 60 degrees celzius and sometimes gets to 61 or 62. However in city it goes as high as 67.
That is also my concern about 4000rpm couse i dont wanna luginin in 5 or 6th gear. But to ride under 4000rpm in first 4 gears is so slow i dont know where to go, to not get hit by some car drivers...
Where do everybody breakin their engines? Where can you go that slow? Or you just write here that you go as user manual sugest and on street you rideit over 4?
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posted March 25, 2004 06:22 AM
Edited By: 
posted March 25, 2004 07:14 AM
Just think, they might actually cruise the web and check out this site! 
The other was a squid who didn't want to pay to title the new R6. Brought it to the track prepped with 0 miles on it and raced it all day. It was smoking like crazy by sundown.
