BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted December 20, 2001 10:33 PM
HARD STARTING
Entropy, here's my 2, 3 and 4 cents worth........
I'd say that your "no problem" situation.....with 4 back to back passes, BUT, in 50 degree weather speaks volumes.
I also agree with Ken (I think it was) that some really well written modules/computer/whatever, DO retard the timing during the initial start up of an engine. Would be good to know if our bikes do this. I wonder if King12R in Canada would know, he went to their tech school.
Lastly, we all know that the compression ratio on the BB kaw's is bumped up. I don't know the exact figures, and I'm too tired to look them up, but it seems like 12-1 or 12.5 to 1 is stock on the 12R and that 13.5-1 or 14-1 is the Muzzy kit compression ratio.
I'm no engine builder, but my thoughts are that this is a significant enough jump in CR to warrant the notion that the starter *may* not be up to the task when it gets overheated. Again, overheating is probably influenced by many things, unfortunately. Makes for hard diagnosis.
Lastly, your idea about going to a negative timing number at 0% throttle, and 500RPM in the PCIIIR is, IMHO, definitely worth trying. I would certainly give it a shot if I were having that trouble. Then again, I'd do the heat shield wrap too sometime, as a test, but who the hell am I?? 
The point is, if you use modest numbers, like -2 -3 or -4, I don't think you're going to hurt the motor, so it's a good test. The problem is that if you can't MAKE the bike do the hard-start thing, then you may never know what will fix it, or be able to troubleshoot it by testing things. 
Allan
'BA'
  
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MO
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted December 25, 2001 06:05 AM
I have taken timing out to try to cool the idle temp. it sounds like it worked. I dont know how to do it but you could try to ad a hard start kit I've never seen it done. it's just a capaciter that fires when you begin to crank. a 12v cap from a stereo shop might work. this is all theroy I dont know if it will work. some one out there knows
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KW
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 25, 2001 10:20 AM
Allan & MO,
thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. One way or another I'll find a solution. With the cold weather now, its not a problem as long as I don't hot lap too much. Summer will be a different story.
I am currently considering mounting a bigger battery in between swing arms near the pivot. With the 6" extension there is plenty of room. I saw a turboed/juiced bike with a BIG battery and a bottle mounted like taht a couple weeks ago and it seemed to be a sweet set up. just a thought.
Before doing that I'll try the retarded timing at low rpm. I know nothing about big capacitors?????
thx again Merry Christmas
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INTRA
Expert Class
Posts: 307
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posted December 25, 2001 05:00 PM
Entropy!!
I just got back from my moms house(christmas stuff),I dropped by my buddies house(he bought a 12 4 mos.ago),damn!It's red,slammed,6inch arm,2up rear,1 down front,I rode this bike and the first thing it did was squat when I hit the gas,cool set-up,I pulled back up in his driveway and looked at the shock,it's a fuckin Hyperpro(looks like it's cut)??He bought this bike from someone in Louisiana,( who had some fast suzuki's and a few h2's),the bottom line is that I have tried to find a shock that worked and no luck,but this one's the shit,man,you could hook this thing up on ice if you had to,he plans on taking it to the track soon(and I will ride it),I did several hard luanches on some cold ass blacktop with his michelin on the back,that thing frogged out like nothing else I have ridden-buy this shock,someone else told me about it before,but I got to go to work on this thing-first hand,if it doesn't go 1.4's,I will shit my pants,the clutch felt awesome too,not bad for a first bike,I told him about this site,he will be on soon.Hyperpro-it's got a purple spring,but it looks like it's been cut(don't they make one that fits?)this is a must for any high hp 12r-or busa for that matter.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 26, 2001 12:25 PM
Entropy
Before the arm and 1361 what were your 'average' times vs. now? On average how much would you say you picked up (you as the rider on your bike at this moment).
Also I would consider pulling timing rather than adding it. It may not be dyno proven but with the added compression it might help. I noticed an increase in MPH pulling 3 degrees vs. adding timing down at Maxton.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 26, 2001 02:32 PM
Bergie,
For an old, fat, slow fart like me average times has a wide meaning, and we are mixing in the effect of the 6" arm and the 1361 which I did at the same time.
Before I learned to slip the clutch outa the hole, my averages were 9.91-9.95 or so.
After I more or less learned to slip the clutch (and learned Ron Ayers ph # and clutch plate part #'s), the average dropped to low 9.7's, once a 9,63.
Since adding the arm and 1361 my best time dropped to 9.189, but not enough passes to get a real feel of how low I can get it. I think i'll get into 9.0's but it'll take some time to learn the launch.
Basically, I think I have picked up a solid 1/2 sec already and will get it to about .650-.700 average improvement once my launch is better
What's really telling about the before & after of the 1361 is the mph. Any dipshit, including me, can be pretty consistent with mph. Best before was 146.5 or so. After 1361 it went to 151.95
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 27, 2001 08:21 AM
Entropy
Cool! I just wondered what to expect because I'm doing the same thing. Haven't been to the drag strip in quite some time but I was averaging 9.7s and occasionally some 9.6s (best two back-to-back 9.59s @ 149) and my MPH averages 145~146 with the stock motor stock arm. Shit 9-teens on a regular basis is awesome!
CLICK HERE for my goodies pics.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 27, 2001 10:02 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 27 Dec 2001 10:05
Bergie,
it was YOUR 1/4 mi vidclips which really got me going on this whole drag mania which I have. 2 of them are still on my hard drive. YOU ARE THE CULPRIT! 
BTW: with your skill I see you doing 9.0's "easily", and hitting 8.9's pretty quickly.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 30, 2001 10:20 PM
quote:
Bergie,
it was YOUR 1/4 mi vidclips which really got me going on this whole drag mania which I have. 2 of them are still on my hard drive. YOU ARE THE CULPRIT!
BTW: with your skill I see you doing 9.0's "easily", and hitting 8.9's pretty quickly.
Thanks! That means a lot to me! I always try to help other riders at the track and pass on what I have learned. Those videos are still online here:
http://berg.fbody.com/movies/zx12 as well as on Easy's site http://www.zx-12r.org under the movies section I believe.
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madmike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted December 31, 2001 08:33 AM
Hey Bergie, Dont take this the wrong way!!
I rember when you were first coming on the boards, I did not like you back then, you have really changed now I consider you to be a great guy, I think I might still have the email where you basicly said I was a piece of crap that did not know how to ride, (you really rubbed me the wrong way). but now your are a great asset to the boards! your full of knowledge, and you can really make that bike scoot!! I cant wait to see what speeds you run next year at Maxton! and I also watched your video's many times to see how I could improve my game! Im glad you shared. also I was thinking the other day you were going to post your crash vidio and never did, was it not on tape or did you not want to bring back memories? well wishing you the best in all of your racing this year!
Mad Mike
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 31, 2001 02:44 PM
crash video
Thanks Mike. Yeah I know that I may have been a dick sometimes; but I have made an effort to change that in the last couple years. I really think that crashing at 120mph had something to do with it
Someone did get the crash on video; the track officials saw it. But they didn't get their name and I was never able to get the copy of it. I _WISH_ that I could find it. It happened on March 11th 2001 at MIR. Unfortunately I was scooted off to the hospital and didn't get back in touch with track officials until the end of May, by then it was too late.
I'm sorry that I implied you sucked years ago. But hell look how fast you are now!! I knew you could do it and so can anyone else who practices regularly.
Shit I probably forgot how to drag race. It's been a while since I've done it. But I'll give it shot in 2002 and also run the ECTA land speed events as well.
Take care and have a safe New Years!
Bergie
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