TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted August 01, 2003 06:00 PM
I think whats being forgotten is the 9.0 was in almost perfect conditions. (winter air, etc)
I know he can muster up 9.teens easy...and .20s screwing up.
He can run 5.90s in the 1/8th on the first pass off the trailer. Still that bike is waaay faster than any Busa of similiar mods and tuning.
  
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted August 02, 2003 12:05 AM
Ive seen it run 9.0s..and 5.90s in person... Ive even seen it run on the dyno....I have not however seen the motor disassembled or inspected the bikes mods in a detailed fashion other than the casual lookover. However I generally dont require people to take apart their bikes to prove their "stockness".
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harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
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posted August 02, 2003 04:35 AM
I was there the day he ran the 9:03. The motor is stock. If you knew the owner you would understand. He was running nutec that day.Kevin and john are both honest people.
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted August 02, 2003 11:49 AM
 Edited By: ra12r on 2 Aug 2003 13:16
Blink, if you don't feel that informing you that 220psi minimum is required and engineered into your billet kit for maximal HP, then to share anything else is truly not neccessary. You attacked me and I wasn't the mechanic that did this to you. You should changed your name to "DELIVERANCE" as you seem to like getting screwed!
Darklord or Fish or whatever your name,,,,,,If numbers don't mean anything to you, then don't look double stupid before you defend someones actions that you don't understand!!! "My people perish becuase of the lack of knowledge!"
Why doesn't everyone just let Kevin explain it himself.........He seems to be able to post BS without any help......?!?!
My whole point with the 9.0's is that to duplicate that with a "stock motored" zx12 should be possible with other guys "stock motored" zx12's as plenty have the same mods that John "stated" he only had on the bike. Kevin's riding skills are not being challenged. His information however is directly in question. (There are tooo many of us here that race zx12's to not know that something is definitely different about that bike on that day as it takes a fast bike and a real strong motor to run 9.0's.) I am saying all this to say that without someone saying something, then others that come here and read will think that the BS posted is truth and good info about our bike. At least they can know that not all information is information at all and some of his statements and actions are absolutely refuted!!!
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted August 02, 2003 12:03 PM
Kevin is on vacation this for a week and does not have the ability to get on the internet at his house....that is the only reason he isnt replying in this thread yet.
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted August 02, 2003 01:12 PM
I'm curious about the 220psi of cranking compression you mention. Why do you feel that number is so critical? It's only measuring the pressure at cranking speed. It doesn't exactly relate to what's happening at normal engine speeds. As I'm sure you know, lowering it, without changing the mechanical comp. ratio, will usually give you more top end power and just the opposite if you raise it. I'm trying to learn more too.
I've raced in some killer conditions at Houston. Cool, dry and good tailwind can really help. I've seen several 9 teens from some skinny guys on stock motored stretched 12s. My bike would run nearly 10mph faster yet I wasn't much quicker. I'm definitely not the best rider around.
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blink
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted August 02, 2003 06:55 PM
OK so you are obviously upset about the times John's "stock" bike has run with Kevin doing the riding. Is it because you can not duplicate those times on your bike? So therefore he must be lying? The motor can't be stock? It also looks like you might be upset about when in a previous post he refused to tell you what the cam profile was on the Carpenter cams? Web Cams pulishes their numbers, 383 lift 280 degrees duration on the intake and 369/261 on the exhaust but I can't find any information on the Carpenter cams or the Muzzy race cams. This information isn't really completely useful because unless you know also the rest of the profile which tells you how quickly the valve will open and close you can't get the whole picture. I picked the Carpenter cams because some of the people on TMH's site were really bashing the Web cams and were praising the reliability of the Carpnter cams. I didn't want to get into another reliability issue there, Muzzy didn't have their cams available and they emphasize race only so since my bike is a daily rider I kind of ended up with the Carpenter cams by default. I don't understand why you can't measure your own cams? Do you not have profiling machine in your shop? The people who manufacture the cams might consider this information a "trade secret" so you might need to measure them yourself. This is my first bike and I'm on my second motor. The first motor was a 1270 that peaked at 178 hp. The oil scraper rings had been broken on 2 pistons on assembly and the pistons had to drag the broken ring up and down the bores for the 12,000 miles it lasted so I am hopeful that my new motor will have a better fate.
But, once again, you seem to want to hide behind your internet facade and and call or shout BS about real people using their proper name. I'm Carl. Who are you?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 02, 2003 08:31 PM
"Supernut??" (Robert Surperent) I think!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 02, 2003 09:15 PM
quote:
... I'm Carl. Who are you?
ra12r has his own name, but in his defence he is only trying to get some "real" info. Sometime he seems to post before he has his coffee or something, but he is a real enthusiast.
Me, I'm Karl, also 
PS: I have decided to see what the Muzzy cams do at 109/111, now that I have the torque curve for 105/107. The test will have to wait till I get back in Houston in 2 weeks, tho  I will also do some tuning with C-44.
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blink
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted August 03, 2003 02:44 AM
Thanks Karl. He just seems to have a grudge for whatever reason and the root cause seems to ME to be that 9.03 claim on a stock motor. I could tell he takes the motorcycle stuff really personal.
There are not a lot of places to have work done on your 12 in Jacksonville Florida but the shop that did my motor at least has some equipment to do the work. The only other place close is Lake City. The weather here is pretty hot and in the few days I have had my motor I have not had any problems starting it at the current set up. It actually starts easier than my old motor. I really don't need to have it set for the maximum possible horsepower if the trade off would be more difficult starting, I don't know if it would be at 220 or higher but I'm just guessing it might. I'm still using my original battery. There is another bike here that has had starting problems when hot and I don't need to go there. Since I'm new to this I am somewhat of a sceptic but the horsepower I have doesn't seem to be way out of line with other modified ones, the only other post I could find with a 1317 was 196. Good luck with your testing.
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VincentHill
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posted August 03, 2003 07:40 AM
As long as he is not RObert!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted August 03, 2003 11:35 AM
Blink, if you would read my first post in this thread, you will note that it was not immediate or directed toward any times on the track. I own a zx12 so why would i be pissed it my bike would run 9.0's stock?!?! duh!!!! However, it didn't, yours didn't and most haven't,,,if it would Kawasaki would have probably prepped one and definitely muzzy's (with Ricky or Ryan riding) to sell their own swing arm extensions.....but didn't and doesn't!!! Or a 1361 would be 8.60's on motor easy!!! So, please don't confuse the original point of my post. Blink you have gotten very personal as I didn't even know it was YOUR BIKE until you said so.......!!!
There is no GRUDGE, it is................"FRUSTRATION"!!!!! In the 4 years that this internet posting has been going on about this bike at this site and others, I have been reading just like many many others, and noted many folks just like to be "popular" at any expense. Then most don't "think" like some baby birds and just eat anything. Well, if someone doesn't say something sometimes the BS can really get out of control. NUMBERS MATTER!!!!!!!!!! no matter what the topic is about mechanical stuff.
Blink(Carl), i choose my internet name just like everyone did.....you choose Blink, so?!?! I choose ra12r, that is my name!!! The difference is, what i share, (when I REALLY have something) is shared without any personal ego involved. I am not trying to make a reputation or name for myself, as most here are thinking like me in this regard. However, there are reasons why people do what they do.........THINK!!! Robert used his real name from the beginning for the same reason as Vincent, for the same reason as Rickey and Doug.......and Kevin "Direct personal identification"!!! But each share different information they want to be connected with......Dang i shouldn't have to explain this?!?!?!? I don't need any direct recognition, what i have to say is not related to my person, just the bike.......ie: ra12r If you must know RA was the Supreme God of Egypt represented by the image of the sun>>>>ie: My zx12 Rules!!! 
Now to your Carpenter decision. .350 vs .385 IN is a larger cam but not that much bigger. I currently still have stock cams because i have not answered all MY PERSONAL questions about what is available vs what I really need.
To explain compression some........Because you don't measure compression while the engine is running, it is called cranking compression. Your compression (pressure in the cylinders) does not change with rpm. So what you measure is what you have. High compression makes more HP. BLINK!!!!!!!! "THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT" Kevin did changes to your motor to DECREASE your performance.......as written!!! That is my frustration, and then reading folks post stuff like "Good Job", "keep up the good Info", ETC!!!! That is real sad, cause YOU just got "CADBYIED" new term.............hahahha
I know the Carpenter numbers, Webb numbers, Megacycle numbers, Muzzy numbers, OEM numbers. To ask logical questions for help is important for all us. Several here are very smart. So i ask for help, the responses helps me to think from a different angles to solve my problem and usually theirs too, and then only share stuff that is proven!!! I ask about the thermostat because I too have a billet block bike. You bike is much more temperature responsive now. But why say anything Blink, I only have nearly two years usage with this block and you are defending Kevin.....rather than REALLY READING AND THINKING about what i am saying! Remember i am just jealous of you and hating on Kevin.......hahahahha When i give advise, it is not advice it is just straight information, cause anything else is BS!
I have built a zx12 lager than yours and tested before Kevin even worked for the Jacksonville cycle store. But, there was no need to even say anything. I post for different reasons. I would read Muzzy's post about what could not be done and just frown......as i was riding their impossible combo!!! Remember they said that anything larger than a 4mm stroke needed an external starter, and the anything larger than the 1270 the cylinders were too thin. SBM had the billet 1320 way before them and everyone bad mouthed him.......but praise Muzzy's for the same block?!?! So comes Bear with timing advancer then with the stacks,,,,,Muzzy said they would not help....now they are selling them?!?! Point,,,,,,,popular folks have posted any and everything and no one says much about nothing......Vincent,,,any comments?!?! So please, this is about information not BS!!! To already understand what he did, he in some combo advanced your IN and retarded your EX to reduce your compression, instead he should have just put in a bigger base gasket to reduce your compression, and put the cams where Carpenter advises. My OPINION!!!
I am only angry when the information is conflicting with know facts and the results can't be duplicated!!!
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blink
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted August 03, 2003 01:13 PM
OK, fine. You seem to take this really personal and it also seems you really have for whatever reason a problem that I can't resolve. It is yours to live with and get whatever enjoyment it can give you. My bike is not my life and although I would like not to be screwed around it seems to go with my hobby anyway.
In your opinion, if you built a 1317 from Muzzys how much horsepower would you expect it to make?
I have the monster snorkle and the original cheesy stacks from Bear so I assume it could have been better if I didn't have these.
Overheating? If you lived down here you would probably have seen me sitting in a parking lot next to mike bike with all my gear layed out around me cooling my bike off. It's times like this I almost wish I had not quit smoking.
I can't give you any technical information of value to you but if you would ever like to know how to highside an F4i let me know.
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted August 03, 2003 04:32 PM
Blink?!?! Bear stacks are good! How much HP,,,,,depends where you dyno!!! hahahaha You can tell from your MPH (not E.T.). I have ridden my billet down there in Daytona traffic, it can be done and not overheat. Responding in detail i guess is taking something serious.....oh well. Yes, i have many problems you can't resolve, so does everyone!! You tell me about the F4 and I will tell you about my zx12 on a low side slide to a high side.....it would be fine Blink for you to just read the intense replies coming my way from my stated observations!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
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posted August 04, 2003 07:13 AM
RA12R, It was a long post, but I read it and feel better about you after reading it! I know Super Bike mike, a hell of a nice person (After all of these years). I understand what you are saying. (Finally) It is just that Kevin is someone we all know and like personally and we do not know you as well. Anyone that comes here and speaks harshly of a respected member is in for trouble! You remind me of me earlier when I was even less constrained You spoke a "LOT" of truth about a lot of things! I remember the thin Cylinder thing and the Billet Block and what could and could not be done! And of course the Bear Stacks which I spent a lot of time testing and posting results. The Advancer, the Crankshaft and all were just like you said! I am even betting that there will be a 19 tooth sprocket offered . Now that you have calmed down and are communicating vs yelling, let me say one last thing
The main difference between Sexual Intercourse is "Salesmanship" (I know that there are other real differences, but usually a good salesman can do just about everything the Rapeist can but with permission!) Try a little different approach next time and the results may be better and the information more. Kevin may just not know exactly how to say that there are some things he does not want to say and some things he cannot say, the the result is, if he knows something that is "Necessary" for us to know, he sure as hell would tell us! Thanks for your time to write what you did and resd this!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted August 04, 2003 07:20 AM
I like milk.....
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted August 04, 2003 08:20 AM
I like to make LOVE,,,,,,,,,,,I don't mind not being "politically correct" as I am not a Rush Limberg fan. However, popularity does not relate to anything else of relevance in life. Being a popular board member does not mean anything when it comes to facts. So hence i read with my mind and learn more as the new info "adds" to the known info that works. I am tired of expressing my "common sense" observations now.
Vincent, it is neccessary for us to have compression.........so I am not sure his Boss would allow him to tell us the necessary things. Last piece of "necessary information" as given by another popular board member.........."Run your bike low on oil for more HP!"
"THE MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE"
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krexken
Zone Head
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posted August 04, 2003 09:31 AM
RA, I still think you're confused when it comes to compression and cylinder pressure. Mech. compressoin ratio is a simply a volume comparison between the piston at TDC and at BDC. When you check your engine with a compression tester, you're measuring how well the engine compresses air at cranking speeds. This is not at all relative to how much compression is inside the motor while it's actually running. Cam timing makes a huge difference in cranking compression and so does mech. comp. ratio. Cylinder pressure does indeed change at different rpms with the motor running. Cam profile and timing, port shape, heck, everything in and around the motor changes the cylinder pressure with it running.
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted August 04, 2003 10:00 AM
I also like to put my knee down in 175mph sweepers.
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted August 04, 2003 06:23 PM
The combnation between compression and cylinder pressure at idle is certainly different than at wot due to more fuel and more air flow. Krexen I agree with you.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
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posted August 04, 2003 07:14 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 5 Aug 2003 10:51
Actually at cranking speed, the valve overlap lowers the compression reading. As the rpm's increase, two things start to happen. On the intake side, the "Speed" of the incoming air / fuel is so fast that it starts to overfill the cylinder to the point that the air / fuel that was coming back through the intake valve (From the now starting to rise piston) is overcome by the force and speed of the incoming air fuel charge.
On the exhaust side, the overlap causes the intake air fuel mix to be "Sucked" into the cylinder by the rush of exhaust gas leaving the cylinder. This starts the filling of the cylinder with the air fuel charge before the piston has moved far enough to actually "Suck" the charge in mechanically! This is my understanding!
Also in the ZX12, my feeling is that this transition takes place around 5,700 rpms. That is why we see the dip in power and need so much fuel to clean up the flat spot there! Even though the WIde Band O2 sensor will tell the dyno operator that you are rich there, you need even more fuel because this is the most inefficient rpm the engine is operated at! Now let us wait for someone (dm) to hand me my head because I am all wrong! (I run 45% more fuel at 5.5 to 6.0K rpms and have almost perfect on - off - on throttle response!)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted August 04, 2003 08:33 PM
very interesting vince. never heard about those effects before. anyone know at what rpm & throttle % peak efficiency is at?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 05, 2003 12:01 PM
WOT peak efficiency (torque peak) for my bike is around 7700 (all stock), 8000-8100 w/built motor aftermarket cams. That peak does move around with cam timing, eh?
I am very interested in seeing what happens to the torque curve when the Cheeseman changes my (Muzzy) cam timing from 105/107 to 109/111. Should have results by the end of this week.
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 05, 2003 12:27 PM
Ent, I love that you're putting forth the effort to do this testing! It's going to benefit all of us.
(insert thumbs-up sign here)
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted August 05, 2003 06:05 PM
Entropy,,,,,,,,,,,you must be your own boss as you are posting secret information?!?!?! hahahahahaha
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