Timewarp
Novice Class
Posts: 51
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posted September 13, 2012 12:32 AM
Question for engine Gurus
Hi I'm a new member here and this is my first post I hope this is the right place for this question. I noticed a thread in the classified section about someone looking for a set of ZX12R turbo pistons and a reply from a member that recommended a particular set with 18mm pins. This is my question.
Why would Kawasaki use 21mm pins in the ZX12R motor anyway? Many years ago I built my own Kawasaki KZ and Z1 motors and they all had 17mm pin except the later GPz1100 that used 18mm. Those motors have been turbo charged to over 500 Hp without problems with the pins once high quality tool steel pins were used. Why would Kawasaki use 21mm in a 200 Hp range motor when it causes other parts like the rod beam to be over sized and heavy as well? Wouldn't it make sense to reduce the pins back to 17mm which would allow a lighter weigh rod to be used and a slightly longer rod to be used as well? I'm talking about an aspirated motor build where every drop of power is being extracted from the 12R motor. Ti rods, pins, Valves, 2 ring pistons, Light weight everything like the ultra high end car stuff has done for sometime now. Does anyone have knowledge of this being done before on the 12R motor? The motor would excellerate like a light switch and be very hard to beat. The 12R is still a very good motor design even though not as fast out of the box by a Loooooong shot as the 14R and given up on by all but a few..
This is a question I've had on my mind for sometime now and hopefully some of the guys with experience building the 12R motor can and will shed some light on the thoughts I posted above. Maybe it's all a bad idea and won't work or it's been tried already and exploded for some reason I've over looked, But if that turbo can live with the reduced pins to 18mm why does the non forced induction motor need such a huge pin when reducing it would free up some much needed room for a longer rod that should allow those stroker motors to live a lot longer and happy life.
  
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Timewarp
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posted September 15, 2012 12:43 PM
57 Views and no replies? Guess I am the only one to ever question why on this issue, surely not.
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dougmeyer
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posted September 16, 2012 07:53 PM
I think you'll find that the smaller pins have thicker walls. If you increase the diameter of a tube you can reduce the wall thickness, maintain strength, and have a lighter weight part. As RPM goes up the reciprocating weight becomes exponentially more important. Shorter rods create more room for a larger dia pin, which is stronger. In high boost Turbos the pin dia needs to be reduced to move the rings down (making the top land more detonation resistant), and these can be slightly heavier because the turbo doesn't need to be spun as high.
In order to make the comparison you need to weigh the pins, not just measure their dia.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Timewarp
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posted September 17, 2012 11:59 AM
 Edited By: Timewarp on 17 Sep 2012 20:01
I understand about larger dia = thinner wall to maintain the same or greater strength. That's a well known fact and I understand how it applies here as well, But wouldn't the smaller pin allow for a much smaller rod beam and allow the compression height to be shortened therefore allowing a longer rod which would really help stroker motor 12Rs to live a little better? When I first started researching this I noticed that the 1000 cc bikes have pins as small as 15mm and they make the same power that the 12R was designed to make and turn a lot more RPM as well.( they also turbo charge these small pin 1000cc motors with great success) My thinking is with the superiority of the 12R cylinder head compared to it's competition wouldn't it make sense if you are building the ultimate aspirated 12R package to reduce the pins, lose the second ring, change the compression height, use all exotic Ti pins, rods, valves, etc and let that cylinder head do what it does and spin the RPM up to take advantage of the lighter rotating assembly and a cylinder head that's begging to breath at high RPMs... Seems like the recipe to the meanest 12R package ever put together. Losing the second ring isn't something anyone would want to do on a motor they want to live years without service, but for a motor that will be maintained like a race motor it makes sense wouldn't you think? If the motor will live with 18mm pins under boost than reducing the weight of all these parts should produce a motor that makes good power and turns RPMs like crazy.
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KZScott
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posted September 17, 2012 06:59 PM
dad accidently revved his 12 to 13400+ rpm once when he missed a shift, and i had the limiter set wrong in the ecu. (opps on both our parts!)
that was at about 12 pounds of boost, stock bore tall deck MTC pistons(rather heavy like the small pin MTC pistons in my bike), standard sized pins (tool steel), oem rods, oem valves with 65lb carpenter springs, 2 intake cams. it never skipped a beat, but i think my heart did when i saw the log file! now im not suggesting everyone goes out there and revs way past the 11600 limit, but the right combo should be able to(hard to say how many times).
I think you will run into valve float issues if you are trying to make a lot of NA power(big cams) by revving it high. Ti valves??
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Timewarp
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Posts: 51
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posted September 17, 2012 07:40 PM
Naturally Ti Valves, Ti Pins, Ti Rods, and very light weight pistons with only 2 rings to lesson the drag created by the rings and take a little more rotating weight off the top of the assembly. The cylinder head is still one of the best heads ever bolted to anything that has rolled out of Japan headed for anywhere basically. It's the motor they would have built if money and warranty were not big concerns I feel.
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KZScott
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posted September 18, 2012 04:46 PM
keep us posted, how high do you plan on revving it?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Timewarp
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Posts: 51
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posted September 19, 2012 12:55 PM
Max RPM is not the goal here to be honest. Think of it like this. Two bikes that are the same make and model with equal riders and they make the same peak power at the same peak RPM. Which bike will win? Now take one motor and lighten up the parts I have listed above nothing more. Same stock bore, same cylinder head porting, compression, even same max RPM just to keep the parameters of the comparison equal. The bike with the lightened rotating assembly will be in a different zip code before the race distance is achieved by bike B.
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dougmeyer
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posted September 19, 2012 03:55 PM
Really? Based on what?
Power comes from BMEP not low rotating assembly weight.
Acceleration comes from excess power required to move the mass. The rotating mass is a VERY small percentage of the mass that needs to be accelerated.
Your goal is noble but not that important. If rotating mass is that important to you, lighten the real mass, the crankshaft and or flywheel. That is a much greater % of the total.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Timewarp
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posted September 19, 2012 05:59 PM
Edited By: Timewarp on 20 Sep 2012 03:30
So you're saying lighter weight pistons,rods, pins, dump the second ring will not heavily influence how the motor accelerates ? Lightening the crank and flywheel would naturally be done. I did not say the motor would make more power. I feel like you misunderstood what I was saying, or I said it in a confusing way. I said take two bikes with motors exactly the same dynoed and proven to make the same power or as close to the same as possible. Take one apart and lighten the components I listed and go back and run the race. The motor with the light weight parts will spin up faster and reach peak RPMs faster in every gear. That equals a quicker motorcycle in a measured distance even if they make the exact same power! Many times a race is won by a motor with less power and not because one rider was lighter weight or more qualified. Again keeping all that equal the engine that spins up faster will be faster for a given distance and all races have a measured distance. Even a road race that last hundreds of miles contains thousands of races from corner to corner contained within them. The bike that accelerates from corner to corner quickest will turn a faster lap again making it a winner. If you are waiting for a motor filled with heavy parts to spin up to peak RPMs while another motor is spinning up to RPM quicker you will have a hard time keeping up with said motor would you not?
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dougmeyer
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posted September 19, 2012 08:21 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 20 Sep 2012 04:22
Of course it influences how the engine accelerates. The difference between a light crank engine and a heavy one is quite obvious when you blip the throttle. But when you hook it to a 650 bike and rider, not so much. It is the amount of power accelerating that total mass that is controlling your ET or lap time (top speed would be unaffected).
You started out by asking about piston pins and why they aren't smaller. The piston pin weight is the dust in the engine build, only a part of the combination.It's the combination that counts.
What is this "perfect" ZX-12 going to be used for? Drag racing? Well then, you might need a heavier rotating assembly so the engine doesn't bog at the hit. Road racing? You might need it heavier so the wheel speed stays under control if you get wheel spin. OR you might need it lighter so the tire spins up when you down shift and the wheel doesn't hop or slide. Bonneville? Heavier is better because you don't want all the turning bits to lose energy during the shift from 5th to 6th.
Is it a turbo or on spray? Well then the only thing that matters is that you can control the boost and keep the pistons in it.
In a perfect (no such thing) hypothetical test or a very exciting race of engine design software, your light pin engine might be a hundredth or two quicker, But knocking 5 pounds off your ass and lightening up the whole works will do more for you.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Timewarp
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posted September 20, 2012 01:42 PM
Edited By: Timewarp on 20 Sep 2012 21:48
Doug I understand what you are saying about the weight on the crank / rotating assembly. I'm attaching a link to ( before everyone says NOT THAT GUY ) read the article and notice where they talk about the mystery part attached to the crankshaft. It's a weight they add or remover to fine tune the power delivery. So yes adding weight can help a combination in some circumstances just as you have said. with that said I would still rather have the weight on the crank spinning in a constant rotation over having it attached to the rod assembly where it's being rocketed to the top and comes to a dead stop for a micro second then rocketed back to the bottom where it does it all again! My reasoning behind the smaller pin comes from my desire to use as long a rod as possible to help a stroked 12R stay happy and keep the rod ratio closer to where it needs to be. The removal of the second ring will greatly reduce the frictional losses in the motor and allow even more room for selecting the rod ratio you want. The life of the engine between freshin ups will be shortened but such is the life of any true race motor. With modern coating technology the use of Titanium in situations like pins has become a lot more feasible. You can run that small dia and heavy wall without the weight allowing the engine builder take advantage of the stuff the smaller pin opens up. As any experienced racer or engine builder knows it's all the little things added together that make the difference. Whether it's a bunch of small unnecessary parts removed from the chassis all added together to equal removing 20 pounds or a bunch of small lightweight parts used inside the motor that allows it to accelerate quicker and rev a bit higher than the rest making more power without a bunch of added stress that makes the difference. It's always a bunch of small gains added together that separate a winning combination from all the rest that seem to run about the same.
****************************************************************************************************
Sorry I do not know how to make the link work it will need to be copied and pasted unless someone can help out and fix it.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/the_factory_superbike.htm#14
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dougmeyer
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posted September 20, 2012 08:01 PM
You have a fair understanding of the concept but are WAY overthinking it and really don't appreciate how small of a change you could affect.
One thing does puzzle me, though. What makes you think that some of us have not tried or even examined all this over the last 12 years? The ZX-12 has been pretty well developed to death. Between Rob Muzzy, Karl, Jim, and me, there isn't much that is possible that hasn't been tried.
Tell you what, build one up and let us see the dyno sheets.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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entropy
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posted September 21, 2012 03:43 AM
It's fun to over-think stuff 
I spent 5-6years overthinking & overspending in development of my 1427 Zx12 motor, LSR.
At one point i got about 245hp.
I learned a TON thanks to Doug Meyer, Jim Gilnack & others.
Then i bought a Busa off-the-shelf NA 1635 kit from Bob Carpenter.
My LSR speed went up by 15mph...
I love these detailed tech discussions, especially when Doug or Jim chimes in.
Karl
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KZScott
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posted September 21, 2012 07:23 AM
anybody try revving one to 14k yet?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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shiphteey
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posted September 21, 2012 10:04 AM
quote:
One thing does puzzle me, though. What makes you think that some of us have not tried or even examined all this over the last 12 years? The ZX-12 has been pretty well developed to death. Between Rob Muzzy, Karl, Jim, and me, there isn't much that is possible that hasn't been tried.
Tell you what, build one up and let us see the dyno sheets.
I'd beg to differ. If we explore a few different configurations regarding going fast on the 12R I think its plain as day to see there is quite a bit left in ALL configurations.
Lets start with the stock motor n/a setup. I don't believe we've seen the outer limits of what can be achieved on a stock motor n/a 12R as of yet. High 190....low 200s.....I believe more can be done, it just hasn't happened yet. The 12's lack of torque and aero penalty compared to a comparable Busa means that many "standing start 1 mile races" really don't show what the bike can do. I have yet to lay eyes on a stock motor 12R with bike and rider combo and go....yep....not much else you can do there. Whether its ride height, weight, state of tune, aero setup, etc I haven't seen one that has gone as far as what I believe the 12R could really do (excluding skewed results like massive tailwinds and headwinds)
In the built motor n/a config as of now we've primarily seen a few strokers live with signifincatly reduced life spans. Karl all but pioneered the development of the 1427...I have seen that bike run, I have raced at the same venues as it has been at ... at the same time...and yet I believe the BIKE has MORE MPH in it. I'm not talking about necessarily needing more HP....Karl pushed and pushed and put out n/a power that was rivaled by few in the 12 world...but that doesn't mean his bike didn't leave anything on the table. I will also say the same thing about Ace Performance 1287s fielded by Sal. He ran speeds rivaling Karl's bike....with less displacement....and even he will tell you there was more in it. Go ahead and call Sal and ask him if he thinks they can get a little more out of the 1287s they ran. He will absolutely say YES because its the truth. May not be MUCH left in it, but I'm absolutely 100% sure there is MORE untapped potential in BOTH Sal and Karl's setups....and thats no diss because....
If we look at the next way of making power....nitrous....my personal favorite....I've clocked the highest speed on a 12R on the spray. Given the massive tailwinds at that particular venue the speed was out of the norm, but since I know what I did, and how I did it, I am very much aware with regards how much extra was left on the table in standing mile runs as well as Loring. Nitrous as many know sometimes throws off your consistenty due to bottle pressure issues and extra electrical gremlins. My bike was never "as good as it could be"....some of it was my own sleep deprived performance....some of it was in setup....shift points.....a/f.....aero setup....etc. Fact is I still have left a bit on the table, I'm fully aware of that. While I may have the weight part of the equations pretty well taken care of, all things considered, relative to others....there is still setup and aeros that can use work. We have seen other nitrous 12s come and do ok....and others with downright disasterous results. No one ever said it was easy.
And then of course....the holy grail.....the turbo 12R. As rare as hen's teeth....even rarer seeing one go down the mile or 1.5 putting up speeds that are head and shoulders above nitrous or n/a 12s.....as of yet. Good luck making a serious contender live. Of course it can be done, they've done it in South Africa....UK....and I have seen enough photos to know they too are leaving things on the table....even if said rider ran the best they could have with great conditions....there was still at least something that was left that could have been done to raise the bar even further. And while one could make the arguement about everyone's run....or every bike's best speeds....the 12 is still one of those bikes that never really got its "respect" even though it has rightfully earned it.
So Doug, with all due respect....although you, Rob Muzzy, Jim, and Karl....I would say there is still quite a bit left. Speeds will be going up by yours truely as time/money allows...I'm pretty sure Sal isn't done with the 12R. KZScott is trying with his turbo 12...and I'm sure I'm forgetting others which I don't mean to. The point is....don't think you, Muzzy, Jim and Karl haven't left anything on the table. I know you're a pretty smart guy...and if you really believe what you're saying you've got quite the ego....or you simply don't realize how much you've left on the table. Time will tell that you don't need a 14 or Busa to go FAST....but I'll readily admit its the easier path and don't knock someone who "jumped ship" .... but it would be foolish to believe there was is nothing left to be explored or discovered about the 12R.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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Timewarp
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posted September 21, 2012 10:58 AM
Edited By: Timewarp on 21 Sep 2012 21:11
Doug the Dyno sheets will NOT show you anything about where this type of package will shine. You are missing the boat on this type of package. First off it's not always the motor with the most impressive Dyno sheet that cover the 1320' the quickest. That's a well proven fact. A motor with less power that accelerates quicker will cover the distance quicker than a motor with more power that accelerates like a pig. I know you been around this for many years and you know that to be a 100% true statement. It's the whole package that makes the magic happen. The motor could end up with the exact same power, but the lighter weight rotating assembly will gain RPM much quicker than standard heavy parts. It will also allow for extended RPM because after all we aren't trying to sell a package that we are putting a warranty on for years with no control over how big a fool ends up buying the package and how it will be abused! With that in mind the motor can be pushed just a bit harder than OEM can chance. The Ti also allows a tight squish with out worry. How do you figure the factory MotoGp motors achieve what they do? I'll promise you there aren't any steel rods in there. Even GM puts Ti rods in the big LS Vette motor and they are notoriously tight when it comes to spending money. I have noticed Karl has Ti rods in that Busa motor he speaks about in this thread. How do I know this hasn't been done ? I don't know for sure let's just say it's a hunch backed by an engine program ran by a man named Greg Anderson ... I'm attaching a link for your reading pleasure.... read it all and rethink your statements made above. You guys may be smart about all this but the surface of what can be had HAS NOT been scratched! The light weight stuff does a little more than you think. Enjoy the read.
http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-19003.html
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dougmeyer
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posted September 21, 2012 03:22 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 21 Sep 2012 23:27
Ship.
I agree with everything you said.
That's not where I was going..... I was referring to Mr. Warp's obsession with light rods, low friction ring packs and small pins. Do you Mr. Warp, think we haven't run Ti rods? Low friction coatings? Two ring pistons? Short Rods? Long Rods?
You know I'm a 12 fanatic, I still have my 1340 on the bench and after my trip to the salt last week was fantasizing about de-stroking it and building a killer 999....
I'm just trying to point out to Mr. Warp that the effort/benefit analysis doesn't exactly pencil.
This is not an area that we have "ignored" and that will magically produce the "Super 12"
Warp. You are flat wrong in your analysis of power not being the measure of acceleration.
Don't confuse the acceleration of the rotating assembly in the engine with the acceleration of the mass of the vehicle.
You think I don't keep up on what the Pro Stock guys are doing? Or the F-1 guys? Or why there are Ti rods in a Z-06? Please.
Again, if you are so convinced that you are on to something, build one. That's what we all do.
You asked for opinions from those with experience building race engines-- I have more than 50 years of that, and half of that getting paid to do it. You may take my advice for what it's worth. It was free, so....
By the way, Karl's 1427 was one Bad Ass mofo of a ZX-12 and I will be eternally grateful for him letting me ride it. Karl ! Why didn't we try smaller Pins? What were you thinking?
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted September 21, 2012 05:23 PM
I have a revised setup planned for next yr Ali. the turbo 12R will get a little more recognition as i keep experimenting and learning. I have a few yrs of catching up to do as far as experience goes, and I love my 12R. wont be jumping ship any time soon  , im just getting started at LSR (man thats addicting too!)
Im running small pins because Muzzy spec MTC pistons needed to move the rings down. very HD pistons.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted September 21, 2012 10:26 PM
Careful Scott. LSR is going to cost you a lot of money! Get out while you can.....
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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entropy
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posted September 22, 2012 01:09 AM
Edited By: entropy on 22 Sep 2012 09:42
quote:
anybody try revving one to 14k yet?
yes...
and completely lost 3 motors doing it as the springs went into some weird oscillation & valves hit pistons.
very delicate balance.
OS valves & big cams & OS TB's & carefully ported Gilnack head = motor still breathing, hp still gaining at 12500-13000rpm.
BUT
no matter what springs or seat pressure i tried, the head came apart at about 12,800-13200.
I considered OS TI valves = take forever to get made by Ferrea
i considered going back to stock size valves but nixxed that.
Doug had me hooked up with THE valve spring guru in CA, and he was on his way to designing custom valve springs when he got sick, delayed.
Working closely(mostly LISTENING closely) with Doug, Jim Gilnack, and other gurus was one of the finest learning experiences in my life.
Both Jim Gilnack & a mysterious guy called "Dark Falcon" doing dynamic simulations for me.
26 full builds & 55+ trips to dyno over 2-3 years.
custom cranks, pistons, cyl, head, cams, this was a "no holds barred" development = pure fun, over thinking everything.
Then i considered that i had dropped about $20K just on those heads/pistons/cyl etc chasing 1000rpm & prob 10hp max.
I wanted to see 250hp so bad. :-(
Tommy Gates & Chris Brandon sat me down at the Texas Mile, noted:
yes, i had the worlds fastest NA kawasaki (Doug on it at Loring = 222) = congrats
but it was still 15mph slower than Mark Deluca on a NA Busa
and...
Basic used Busa = $6000
Bob Carpenter 1635 kit = $10,500
less than $20K = 270hp @ 10,800rpm; uber longevity;
for another $7-8k, another 15hp+ @ 11,500rpm avail with a trick BC head, pipe, OS TBs, trick box...
BTW: after all my work the bottom line = max brute hp = LSR mph, forget any nuance of spinning anything...
kawi 240hp from 1427 = .168 = somewhat dependable
busa 285hp from 1635 = .174 = rock solid longevity
I am not gonna challenge that someone can get more than 240-245 out of a 1427, i hope they do. But that person might wanna clearly state the goal of the project...
and anyway, screw the zx12, the ZX14 allows 1580cc+/-, develop that bad boy if yr blood runs green!!!!
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entropy
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posted September 22, 2012 01:49 AM
BTW: i fully understand wanting to build the fastest Kawasaki, been there, done that.
You are part of a kawasaki tribe, you don't care about what the fukken Busa will do.
I just wanted to see my motor on JC's dyno putting out the most NA hp he'd ever seen.
I LOVE this stuff.
and even more, love my friends Doug & Jim Gilnack & dark Falcon & others who patiently explained to me how the 4cycle airpump works, again and again and again
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entropy
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posted September 22, 2012 01:58 AM
And to Ali
Sal trumped my hp with smaller riders and better aeros.
I love sal like a brother and send everyone i can to him for builds; GREAT guy.
But in LSR aeros are king.
I didn't want to go away from stock plastic with my 12.
Look at the new ZX14, giant NA stock hp, but still second fiddle to Gen2 Busa in LSR
Gotta say the new 14 is winning at the 1/4mi these days, its a beast!
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shiphteey
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posted September 22, 2012 04:20 AM
Karl, a couple things:
Again, HP is only part of the equation. You can't say with 100% certainty that a rider of = size/experience as Sal would have necessarily clocked the higher speed. Possibly? Sure, probably? Can't bet on it till you see em run same day type deal.
On Aeros....I've still kept the 12R look....partly because I like it.....partly because unless someone really doesn't know shit about bikes they can recognize it. The 12R still does very well actually....in LSR....in its classes. Aside from the ridiculous speeds Turbos are clocking in 1350 class in the n/a and fuel (nitrous) world our main competition is still the older and newer Busas. You remember the older Busas not really having JACK on the 12R in n/a setup or spray, respecting the 1350cc displacement.
The older 14? I don't understand why it was 1352. Made about as much sense as releasing a GSXR-1002cc.....forcing it go get on a serious steroid setup to run with purpose built Busas. Very difficult for a stock motor 1352 to compete n/a against built Busas....with the 1441 things have been upped....but again as you know....competing against 1600+ Busas n/a vs n/a.....well push comes to shove the Busa will win that.
When you say the 14R being second fiddle....to the Gen2 Busa....again which class? I've jockeyed a 1340 Busa and a 1441 Kawasaki.....I'd almost compare that to when the ZZR 1100 was put against the 1999 Busa....its that much of a jump IMO. So I'd say there is NO comparision between them. But yes, if you're talking about throwing in tons of money at both, big motors, no holds barred, the Busa has the edge......
Which makes grabbing records with a Kawasaki all the more sweeter....and evident that you're doing at least SOMETHING right, something notable.
I am not sure if Timewarp is looking for the fastest stock displacement n/a 12R or fastest n/a 12R....I think the latter if I'm reading correctly....and I wish him good luck. Its not easy with this annoying monococque frame, shit clutch, weak trans and smaller motor. But the 12 still shines. 12 years later put the right rider on it, give them enough room and a stock motor n/a 12 can break 200 mph.....still to this day we don't have many motorcycle....PERIOD.....that can do that.
KZScott.....stock up on spares.....thats all I can say. That and as long as you don't get greedy you will have fun. I've learned a lot by NOT always going as fast as I wanted.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted September 22, 2012 06:44 AM
quote:
Careful Scott. LSR is going to cost you a lot of money! Get out while you can.....
too late Doug, got a white hat at Loring on a friends bike. Mine will be going next summer, Ive decided to be poor for the rest of my life
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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