Timewarp
Novice Class
Posts: 51
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posted September 28, 2012 10:00 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 30 Sep 2012 07:49
quote:
I just saw this thread.... I just dont get on here much anymore......
Timewarp, these guys are very knowledgeable with the 12r and all engines. I think any advice they give you is worth listening to.
I think what Doug was saying is that the gains from lightening up engine internals is such a small % gain in performance compared to lightening up the bike rider combo it self, that your time is better spent doing that.
On land speed racing, aeros trumps hp. The kawis have a hard time making the hp of a busa mostly due to engine displacement.
As for rpm limitations in an engine... unlike popular belief its not usually based on the strength of the connecting rods. Usually its mean piston speeds and g loading on the compression rings causing unseating from the lower ring land and causing a flutter like the weight on top of a pressure cooker. That's assuming the oiling system is working properly.
Or its based on valve-train stability and harmonic issues.
The absolute best modern drag race engines are aproaching 6000 FPM mean piston speeds with super thin delicate rings that need vacuum under them to operate properly.
Endurance engines dont run that high MPS because the delicate rings dont last long enough. 1320 feet at a time doesn't tax an engine nearly as much as being at red-line for sustained periods of time does.
You can build a zx12r engine to achieve a MPS of 6000 FPM for drag racing but it will take a lot of time and money and it still wont be as fast as one of our 1719cc busa engines with gobs more torque and 330 hp. And it wont be very durable.
As a general rule the more hp per cc you extract from an engine the less reliable it is. This is why an R4360 "only" develops 3000 hp. But it can run for long periods of time at high power levels. Yet the engine can be modified to produce far far more power than that... it just wont last as long.
We have a DTS engine dyno here at the shop. Its a "real" water brake dyno that we can control the acceleration rate of the engine. When we change the acceleration rate of the engine the HP doesn't change. But if you lighten the internal components of the engine the engine will try to accelerate faster but the dyno computer/control valve doesn't let it so the dyno perceives this as more torque at a given rpm. The engine isn't actually making more torque or hp but the dyno is absorbing a higher % of the total available hp showing a net gain. If we hold the engine steady at say, 8000 rpm, with and without the lighter weight crank the torque applied to the dyno is exactly the same.
My lunch is all gone so I gotta get some work done now. 
Very intelligent post thank you for not taking the opinion that you are God and everyone else is dirt ! Addressing your post from top to bottom.
1st. You guys are assuming that I haven't already addressed the bike/ rider weight issue. I was taught a valuable lesson many years ago. That lesson is this. Never take a small motor bike and spend money to only achieve making it run like a stock motored larger bike! I have always stuck by that rule. The 12R is still in my opinion superior to every Kawasaki with the exception of the 2012 ZX14R. And I still like the cylinder not being attached to the top case of the 12R design over the 14R. Also I believe in finishing a job and not jumping ship for the latest greatest thing to roll off the dealer floor. Anyone can buy a 14R and go fast it's a proven fact. Very few can take a ZX12R and achieve greatness that's also a proven fact.. I still believe the ZX12R cylinder head is superior to the 14 and 14R. This is a matter of selecting a particular class and resetting every record ever set, and that class is the 1350 cc class. There is not a Hayabusa rolling that will compete with the 12R engine package I have spoken of in this post at 1350cc. Aero is king which I know and have addressed. I have addressed the aero of every part of the ZX12R package from the body panels to the ram air system all the way back to the stacks! Does anyone really think I would spend the money required to have every part of the motor built as a one off part made from mostly Titanium where applicable if I had not already handled the weight and Aero issues of the rest of the package?
2nd. I have spent a great deal of time working on a Spintron machine searching for answers to questions most people don't even have enough information to ask. I understand a great deal about micro welding of rings and ring flutter. There are coating on the market today which allow pistons to be machined to much tighter tolerances without worry of welding the rings to the lands. I have also engineered the piston speed to stay on the safe side. There's also the time prove method of running a vacuum pump on the bottom end to control ring flutter that you mentioned in your post. I have done more than my homework .
The final answer is this. You can not run your 1719cc Hayabusa motor in the 1350cc class! Sir I respect you for the way you approached this thread..
My 1348cc ZX12R package will whip everything in the 1350 aspirated class no matter what motor it is. The motor will live and be a street durable engine able to run an entire riding season possibly two seasons between freshin ups. It will surpass every record the 1427cc package ever did with the exception of the tail wind aided Loring records set by many a few years back.
Jim, your statement about a bigger motor being more durable because it does not have to be pushed as hard. You're speaking about volumetric efficiency and the larger the motor the less efficient it has to be to make the desired level of power. Modern F1 motors exceed 100% efficiency without the aid of any power adders and they are durable because they are filled with the highest technology on the planet. The same technology is available to everyone if you are willing to search it out. There are certain parts that are protected but those have nothing to do with those motors being durable. Reliability is at all time high with the modern materials and coating that are out there for everyone to take advantage of. Again I'm not trying to build the fastest thing on two wheels in the mile I'm trying to build the fastest ZX12R that has ever rolled at any CC that's naturally aspirated. I'm not comparing this to a turbo or N2O assisted motor either. No power adders what so ever. If I wanted to build the fastest motorcycle on the planet I would not choose the ZX12R as the platform to start from I promise you that. I would have to do some research but it may just be a Goldwing style motor that I would start from for several reasons. First off because it has not been done and I hate the monkey see monkey do approach to racing.
I want to thank you once again Y2K for your intelligent post . I think you will agree with what I have replied to your post with and I want to ask you now. ( Do you agree at 1350cc the motor and bike package I have explained will be very tough to beat?) I'm not going to play into the hands of the Hayabusa by trying to make the biggest motor possible with the 12R's factory cases and cylinder spacing.
  
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KZScott
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posted September 28, 2012 07:46 PM
Jim, did your 1427 have an offset crank?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 29, 2012 04:23 AM
Scott, no I didn't run offset rod journals. But I would consider piston guided rods next time in a ultra high rpm engine.
The biggest problem with a zx12r stroker is the piston comes out of the bottom of the cylinder too far. This collapses the skirts rather quickly.
The Muzzy block for the strokers should ideally have longer cylinders vs the one for the stock stroke. The counterweights are very close the the bottom of the cylinders. But this would mean two different ones.
Timewarp, I agree that the zx12r head is superior to the busa head or the zx-14 head including the gen 2 zx14 head. This is why it was chosen to be used on a special "automotive" engine project were working on now.
If i was building an engine for the 1350 LSR class it would indeed be a zx12r engine.
Based on mean piston speeds and current ring technology the stock stroke zx12r engine can be revved close to 16,000 rpm for drag racing and 15,000 rpm or so for LSR providing all the support systems are engineered for it. You would want a dry sump for sure.
As far as micro-welding and rings.... we use $1000 rings packages in the 289 ci scca vintage road race engines we build for Cobra Automotive. These are coated and very thin and they live at very high mean piston speeds but they too have there limits.
We have tried many coating over the years as well as different surface treatments and most of them dont extend part life or provide any additional HP.
There are some like DLC and REM and cryo treatments that do help with part life in some applications but most are just a total waste of money.
As for valve train, that's where you need to concentrate most of your efforts. The problem is that the buckets in the zx12r are very small. This was done to keep the spring tension down for less hp losses and better longevity of the cam and buckets. They know that 50% of all the bikes out there are not going to get the proper oil put back in them during there lifetime.
People insist on using cheep over the counter automotive oils in flat tappet engines and it causes premature bucket and cam lobe wear. They have to warranty these engines.
Putting in larger buckets allows the use of the cams needed to make the big power but the buckets have far more mass. The springs also have more mass, as do larger valves.
The zx12/zx14 retainers are steel and heavy compared to a busa aluminum retainer. The busa needed aluminum retainers because the 28mm busa buckets are very heavy.
By using Ti retainers in the kawis you can take off quite a bit of weight. Going with TI valves is a must if you want to rev these engines up and use cams with low major and minor intensities.
This is where the spintron comes in. You can rent time on them as we have and if you use the time wisely and efficiently it s somewhat cost effective. Have a plan well before you get there so you know exactly what tests you are going to run so you can make the most of your spintron time.
We moved platforms simply for displacement reasons. We could have kept going with the zx12r but a 1427 isn't going to dominate the 1650 class. We have a hard enough time getting the 1570cc zx14 to make the 280 hp at 12,000 rpm and live there for 26 seconds at a time. But that's another story for another day.
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psycho1122
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posted September 29, 2012 04:58 AM
Excellent contribution and interesting info. Thanks Jim!
This is exactly why I will send my spare head to you when the time comes
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Timewarp
Novice Class
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posted September 29, 2012 11:02 AM
Jim I have also discovered another place to save weight on the 12R valve train. Take a look at the retainers and shims used in the 10R head. The valve stem is 4.5mm instead of 5mm and the shim is 7.5mm compared to 9.5mm for the 12R. All these little things add up when you start talking about reving something 15K RPMs. The Busa buckets could also be lightened up with a healthy dose of holes. I remember seeing Warren Johnson's valve covers off his 500" stuff many years ago and he even had his Ti Retainers drilled for weight reduction.
As many here can now see the 12R engine is far from properly developed and it should now be clear why I was not going to take being talked down to by someone that clearly has a limited amount of knowledge about what's possible now days. I'm sure at some point he was on top but the top keeps moving further and further away requiring constant research to keep up with. The 12R was not completely developed it was given up on because the Busa was easier. The 1427cc combination was a huge mistake and should have been scrapped before it was ever sold to anyone. All those packages done was give the 12R a bad name in the racing circles. As Jim as stated and I stated earlier the 12R cylinder head is superior to ANY CYLINDER HEAD SOLD TODAY 12 YEARS LATER! You guys need to remember that Kawasaki has never put the amount of effort into developing anything before or since the 12R. It was and still is the bike that changed everything. It's not for those that want the easy way out and it's not for those that want to have an all Brocked out latest thing on the market. It belongs to those of us that understand what it wants and how to give it what it needs.
Jim I wouldn't want a dry sump because of the added weigh and complexity of the hose monster it creates. I also want this to be a street driven motor. I'm willing to intertain coverting the battery box area of the frame into a dry sump tank I suppose but having some God ugly mess hanging in the swingarm isn't an option. I also refuse to run a side winder header. I realize these things will cause me to leave a small amount of power on the table but having something that is best described as a trailer queen waiting to be fed and dragged to the next event isn't something that interest me in the least.
The intended target for this project is the worlds fastest naturally aspirated street driven Kawasaki at 1350cc in street trim. I understand this adds a lot of extra problems to over come but easy is for those other guys that understand what the phrase [ give up ] means! I do not contain such a phrase in my vocabulary. Thank you again Jim for posting the facts as they really are and with your high post count and respect perhaps these non believers will see the light. They may not like me but they will respect what I do to them with an outdated and non capable engine design without any power adders other than the ones Kawasaki left there for us all to take advantage of and up to now no one has.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 29, 2012 02:17 PM
We dont use busa buckets anymore at all they are too heavy. We use other buckets that are lighter and larger in diameter.
The 7.5mm shims used in all the 1000's have been used with custom retainers in other applications. There lighter not just because of the dia but the thickness range is less also.
Holes in the buckets have been done in F1 before but there not just holes. There wire EDM patterns that reduce weight while retaining as much integrity as possible.
I dont think Doug or anyone else was talking down to you. I've known Doug for many years and if you ever met him he's not that way at all. Doug is one of the good guys.
Its very hard to explain technical things and such to people when you dont know the other persons knowledge base. Some people may think I talk down to people but I'm really just trying to explain things so EVERYONE can understand it. I really dont type responses for just the person asking the question because there are many people reading all this stuff and everyone's knowledge base is different.
So take a deep breath and relax, no one one is talking down to you.
And dont think that Doug Meyer doesn't keep up with whats current in racing. He may be old (sorry Doug) but he's still into all this stuff.
I'd have to disagree on the 1427 being a complete mistake. I put over 6000 hard miles at 220 hp on mine on the street. I do miss that bike. I Had the muzzy block and didn't have any issues with it. Now the Superbike Mike blocks, well that's another story. They had issues.
The BMW head is an awesome head and is what i consider the "best" head on the market right now. The valve to bore ratios are high and the ports and chambers are nice. But the biggest thing is the rocker arm system vs the bucket system. Finger followers are the way forward. Every one of these engines should be using them for several reasons and we can get into that some other time.
I think the 99 Busa was a bigger game changer in the bike world than the zx12r. Yes the 12r made more peak hp but the busa was a 20 hp jump from anything before it. About the same as the 2nd gen zx14 is today over the busa. 20 hp jumps in performance dont come along very often. But the BMW 1000 did it too.
On the dry sump... yea it does add weight, and cost, and some may not like the look of it, but some situations require it. That's a whole nother topic also for another day. On a street bike you really shouldn't need it.
As far as giving up on the 12r and it being an outdated design? You have to realize that there are better platforms to start with for drag racing than the 12r and also for LSR. So changing platforms isn't really "giving up" its accepting reality. Also its a monetary thing. If you give me a stock busa and a stock zx12r and give me, what ever number of money to work with..... say $3000? I can make a busa go faster and quicker. The same applies to the gen 1 or gen 2 zx14. They just go faster for equal money.
Another big reason from my perspective is, as a businessman running a shop that sells CNC ported heads, head and cam packages, and fully blueprinted race engines, I need to move to where the markets are. I have to be honest and tell you that the zx12r is a very, very small % of the volume of work we do now. We do far far more busa heads than zx12r heads or even zx14 heads. We are more known for Kawasaki's but we do more Busa heads. I do more of the 315 hp Grudge busa heads than zx12r heads and those heads are $5000. So its not that we gave up on the 12r we just had to move on.
However we are now working on a zx12r head that will feed a "very large" hybrid engine that we expect to make stupid power and torque with. Billet cases the whole shooting match. So there is still stuff going on with the 12r.
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Timewarp
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posted September 29, 2012 09:17 PM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Sep 2012 06:20
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the game changer deal I guess. There's nothing trick about building power with a big FAT motor like the Busa. The trick is building the kind of power Kawasaki did with a 100cc less motor and they done it with a cylinder head that took 11 years for any other manufacture to catch up to. BMW has a lot of roots in F1 I would expect them to build a nice piece. Kawasaki motorcycles is a very, very, very small insugnifigant part of KHI with a very small budget and they kick major ass with very little money. The ZX12R is as sexy with the body panels off as it is with them on. To a mechanic like myself it's more sexy with it's plastic off. The packaging is in a class unequaled. As for the Dry Sump I spent some time looking it over today and it can be done using the battery box area for the tank and adapt a Perterson or some other car pump to the oil pump drive much the way Muzzy has done except I would NOT use the OEM feed pump if I went to the trouble of building a dry sump system it makes no sense. I believe I can keep it packaged within the fairings. THANKS FOR THE NEW PROJECT Sir! NOT
The BMW is more crippled by limited displacement than even the 12R making that head it sports only good for 1000cc development does it not? The followers do offer many advantages I can easily see. Leverage is always nice to have on your side reguardless of how it's being used. Sitting the cam directly over the top of the valve is surely not the easiest way to overcome the valve springs just to list one of the disadvantages.
As for following the market I fully understand you and any other company doing that. You would be insane to sit around waiting for a ZX12R to come through the doors to build. I understand that but at the same time you wouldn't turn down the oppertunity to work with someone that came through those doors with a well developed plan would you?
On the buckets are you speaking of the Kibblewhite buckets? http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/item/ponents-suzuki-gsx-1300r%E2%84%A2-hayabusa-br-1999-to-2011/eplacement-tappets-for-suzuki-gsx-1300r-motorcycle/60-60035?
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entropy
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posted September 29, 2012 11:25 PM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Sep 2012 11:51
Jim,
nice, balanced, informative post.
Thanks!
The decades you have spent listening, researching, experimenting, building, racing, instructing show through.
And, as usual, your perspective invites dialog.
I agree with you that the Muzzy 1427 offset cyls are not a "mistake".
That configuration is a compromise to gain a lil displacement.
- Keep some thickness between cyl = desireable
but
- Cyls not centered under chambers = not desireable
When seeking very high performance, it's all about trading reliability for horsepower & shape of tq curve,
there is no magic bullet
Thanks to awesome advice & a disciplined testing program we found hp (240-245) not available from any vendor, and at the end I had acceptable reliability.
I consider my ZX-12 hp improvement project a success, went from 155 to 240-ish hp.
It should ne noted that to get 240hp, virtually everything had to be screwed with.
102/102 cam CL's require MAJOR accomodations.
Too damn bad my LSR speeds didn't demolish the pesky Busas
why:
1. I am 6'3", 245lb suited
2. I insisted on keeping stock plastic, no aero improvements.
Why am i bothering to type this stuff????
Because both my Busas are sold & I have spare time
Because i love this stuff.
Thanks, Jim.
Karl
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 30, 2012 05:42 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 30 Sep 2012 13:55
Karl, I agree that the offset cylinders are not ideal but its a compromise for cylinder integrity and reliability. With that said we haven't seen a performance disadvantage with the offset cylinders so far.
Example..... I cant give details of the builds or who they are but, one is 86 x 73 1696cc (offset) and the other is (non offset) 85 x 74 1680cc. The builds are the same except the bore and stroke. There both making about .174 hp per cc on 2 different Dynojet 250i dynos. One has been on an MJP dyno and put down considerably more.
So at this point the offset chambers dont seem to be an issue. That's not to say at some point they wont be.
I do think that I could get a 1427 zx12r up to at least the .174 hp per cc now, or slightly more. But reliability would be a concern. Mostly the pistons coming out of the bottom of the bore. But that could be addressed if Muzzys was willing to make them a little longer and raise the deck a tad. Not a hard thing to do in Mastercam.
Timewarp, you say quote:
"There's nothing trick about building power with a big FAT motor like the Busa."
If that's true then everone would have them making .174 hp per cc. It would be common place. But its not. Tell me anyone else on the planet that is making more power per cc than our head and cam packages. I have customers that will race anyone N/A stock frame all motor right now for $20,000 or what ever amount you bring. Or another that will race anyone for the same amount or more and you can spray all you want with any bike you bring. Heads up.
As for a dry sump tank..... The battery box area isn't quite big enough for the dry sump tank. It also would be very difficult to make the required baffling needed to deaerate the oil. Plus the heat would be a problem, it would be uncomfortable for the rider and heat the fuel in the tank and airbox/frame. The ideal thing is to make a tank built into the swing-arm. But making a proper dry-sump tank is tricky. You could use a pump made by www.daileyengineering.com its driven off the stock water pump drive. So you would need an electric water pump.
But for the street you really dont need a dry sump.
A stroker big bore BMW of say 1200-1300 cc would be nasty. I dont know if there's enough room for a big crank in there but it would be an interesting project for sure.
So Karl whats next? Lets build an N/A zx12r engine 83mm x 46mm 1000 with Doug? Put the motor in a zx10r? Get Chad or Zack to ride it?
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Timewarp
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posted September 30, 2012 08:16 AM
You went from talking apples to apples and oranges on that on Jim. When I say making power with a fat motor is easy it's not referring to a full blown racing motor like a 1000 CI piece seen in the car racing circles where every part has been touched. Hell even say an 800 Ci motor will do for this comparison. What you spoke of with your stroked Busa builds equates to those motors. There's a small hand full of people that can or even attemp to build those as we also see in the bikes. I was speaking of the Busa in OEM specifications compared to the 12R. It was 100cc bigger and made LESS POWER!! It made comparible power but it was a FAT motor compared to the 12R which also carried a 5 year warranty from the manufacture of the customer wanted it. There was no majic with the Busa motor it was a lot less volumetric efficient than the 12R and by comparison was a DOG! Even I have stated if and the KEY WORD HERE IS ( IF ) If I wanted to build the biggest and fasted motorcycle I could spend my money on it would -------------------------> NOT <----------- Be a ZX12R based on it's limitations and lack of developement from the after market. Just open up Kibblewhite's web site and look at the parts they alone build and stock for a Busa compared to every other bike they build valve train parts for. An example that's common all across the internet and the globe. BigCC, NLR, and several more vendors build and sell turbo Busa packages that have yet to tap all the power they can make reliable with a Busa motor and the parts are a phone call away. No Mastercam required by an engeneer at any vendor to design the first new part! It's all already been done and proven to work.
Back to this thread and it's purpose. At 1350cc my ZX12R engine design can not be beat and will not be beat. As for the 12R at 1427 not being a mistake. How can anyone say it's not when even KArl posted for whatever gains it made it gave back as much from losses because of the design of the package? I would call that a wash and a waste of time and effort in my book. Plus it really gave up in the reliability department. Jim you didn't comment about the Kibblewhite valve buckets are those the one's?
Eric Buell and funny enough the HArley Chopper builder Roger Bourget held their oil within the frames of their bikes. I can figure something out for a tank that will work just fine without burning up the rider or be a car part hanging on a bike that doe's not belong there! How many quarts would you think Jim 4 to 5? It hase 3 from the factory so anything over that is an improvement.
Karl the 1350 motor I speak of will make more power than the 1427 did as well. Bet me please!
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entropy
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posted September 30, 2012 10:01 AM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Sep 2012 18:20
quote:
Karl the 1350 motor I speak of will make more power than the 1427 did as well. Bet me please!
Timewarp, as long as we're being civil here...
I wouldn't bet against an uber built 1350 trouncing my 1427 results.
In fact, after the valve float issue is solved, i'm betting that an uber-1348 WOULD trounce it at high rpm.
My 1427 made hp by solving the breathing issue.
Most built 12 motors' hp curves seem to sign off before 12k.
However, my motor's hp was still climbing at 13000,
It took alot of development work to get to this result.
All that development work for naught as the valve springs went into resonance.
With a 1348, stock sized Ti valves alone might solve it.
A bit less aggressive cam ramps might do it...
Assuredly there is a solution.
ASSUREDLY.
TW: please do not assume because i stayed with rhe 1427 for so long, i was oblivious of options.
I literally had the best of the best advisors in my corner.
I spent the time, energy & $ to do the experiments.
I suceeded in building a motor more powerful than any other NA Kawi i know of.
As you know, the best of the best advisors generally DO NOT AGREE with each other when you are getting to the last 5% of performance gain.
This is where it gets interesting...
Take whose advice?
Do what experiments?
The "last 5%" is a black art, borders on ju-ju.
You have reasons for obsessing over a 1348, and i believe i understand them,
By the same token, i had reasons why i ended up obsessing over a 1427.
Fundamentally i was ignorant of the black art of the "last 5% motor building" when i selected the 1427 in 2001.
And by the time my ignorance was somewhat mitigated, i was vested & deeply committed to that config.
another thing...
I believe i could take what i learned on the 1427 experience, utilize much of it on a 250hp/1348cc development project.
Here is an idea!
Let's have a contest, karl vs TW, see who can build the a 250hp 1348 first.
or, better yet...
Let's have YOU build the 1348 utilizing all the talent & experience you have in yr head and at yr disposal, AND YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TALENT POOL AVAILABLE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SITE.
Full transparency, everyone helping you.
You sharing the development issues as the come up.
Since there is close to ZERO commercial potential for developing a 250hp 1348 motor, i think this is feasible.
Karl
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted September 30, 2012 10:05 AM
Edited By: tcchin on 30 Sep 2012 18:06
quote:
A stroker big bore BMW of say 1200-1300 cc would be nasty. I dont know if there's enough room for a big crank in there but it would be an interesting project for sure.
I agree. The stock motor is already at .197 hp per cc. Some more displacement and a Motec ECU would indeed be interesting; perhaps even more interesting than a 1350cc ZX-12R. Since HP is a function of RPM, having a 14k stock redline really helps the BMW.
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Timewarp
Novice Class
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posted September 30, 2012 11:14 AM
The ZX10R is giving the BMW all it wants and a little more to anyone that's not following Wold Super bike. Tom Sykes stands ready to lock away the championship possibly today on a ZX10R! BMW had it and failed to take full advantage and now Kawasaki has caught back up. I agree with Jim about the followers. I also see no reason what every cylinder head isn't CNC machines in the chambers like the BMW as well. They could match the pistons and the chambers a lot better at the factory than they do for little if any extra cost. On the Motec ECU -----------------------> BIG, BIG Money but well worth the cost.
Jim one area I'm looking close at for an aero advantage that will still allow the bikt to appear stock is side mounted rads like an RC51 Honda. It will allow a big nasty aero problem with all these bikes to be cleaned up with proper ducting it will carry away the unwanted BTU's of heat with far less drag much like an F1 car. Many of the secrets contained within an F1 car can not be seen but then there areas that they simply can't hide. Aero is king and it won't be over looked however I demand that the bike remains stock appearing for the most part. Kawasaki dpent a lot of time and money developing the A model body there's not a ton that needs addressed other than things that production cost kept them from doing. .
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KZScott
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posted September 30, 2012 11:30 AM
quote:
quote:
Karl the 1350 motor I speak of will make more power than the 1427 did as well. Bet me please!
Timewarp, as long as we're being civil here...
I wouldn't bet against an uber built 1350 trouncing my 1427 results.
In fact, after the valve float issue is solved, i'm betting that an uber-1348 WOULD trounce it at high rpm.
My 1427 made hp by solving the breathing issue.
Most built 12 motors' hp curves seem to sign off before 12k.
However, my motor's hp was still climbing at 13000,
It took alot of development work to get to this result.
All that development work for naught as the valve springs went into resonance.
With a 1348, stock sized Ti valves alone might solve it.
A bit less aggressive cam ramps might do it...
Assuredly there is a solution.
ASSUREDLY.
TW: please do not assume because i stayed with rhe 1427 for so long, i was oblivious of options.
I literally had the best of the best advisors in my corner.
I spent the time, energy & $ to do the experiments.
I suceeded in building a motor more powerful than any other NA Kawi i know of.
As you know, the best of the best advisors generally DO NOT AGREE with each other when you are getting to the last 5% of performance gain.
This is where it gets interesting...
Take whose advice?
Do what experiments?
The "last 5%" is a black art, borders on ju-ju.
You have reasons for obsessing over a 1348, and i believe i understand them,
By the same token, i had reasons why i ended up obsessing over a 1427.
Fundamentally i was ignorant of the black art of the "last 5% motor building" when i selected the 1427 in 2001.
And by the time my ignorance was somewhat mitigated, i was vested & deeply committed to that config.
another thing...
I believe i could take what i learned on the 1427 experience, utilize much of it on a 250hp/1348cc development project.
Here is an idea!
Let's have a contest, karl vs TW, see who can build the a 250hp 1348 first.
or, better yet...
Let's have YOU build the 1348 utilizing all the talent & experience you have in yr head and at yr disposal, AND YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TALENT POOL AVAILABLE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SITE.
Full transparency, everyone helping you.
You sharing the development issues as the come up.
Since there is close to ZERO commercial potential for developing a 250hp 1348 motor, i think this is feasible.
Karl
that sounds like a killer project Karl!! DO IT!!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Timewarp
Novice Class
Posts: 51
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posted September 30, 2012 01:42 PM
Edited By: Timewarp on 30 Sep 2012 21:57
Glad I could educate you enough into believing I'm 100% righ about my package. You go ahead and steal my engine design and build you a 1350cc 12R. That's no less than I expected from you but it's par for the course. How about you build a 1350 Busa and lets do it that way? Sounds much better than you capitalizing on my isdeas after I came here and proved both you and Doug WRONG when you were BOTH telling me there was nothing left in the 12R worth going after. I think you pouring your resources which are without doubt superior than everyone elses here and on most any other internet chat room. I came here and stood my ground proved you wrong and stealing my design is what you feel would be the right thing to do? I don't have your money as most anyone in this sport don't have. You abandoned the 12R and denounced it to be inferior to the Mighty Busa and now you want to steal my design. I posted this stuff against my better judgement for that very reason but felt you had enough integrity to not openly steal my ideas but you go ahead if that's the only way you can feed your ego. Take that pile of money and steal my hard work like so many people with huge money do. You couldn't take your ass whipping from my hard work you have to take my design and build it. It's not a race and I have worked for years developing a complete package. If you incist on stealing my engine deisgn I will step away from it and build something else but rest assured I won't educate you or anyone else again.
Why not stick by your first comments and build that mighty Busa or better yet build a 1427cc Kawasaki with all your outdated building techniques. And KZScott you would think stealing someone's hard work is a great idea. You just best pray I don't decide you educate you boy on how a proper turbo is designed and exicuted. There are 1000cc naturally aspirated 04 Suzuki's runinng within 2 tenths of what your turbo is running. With nothing more than a bore kit and small cams at 1050cc! You really should be busy in your own shop trying to figure out where your ass is located so just maybe you can hit it becaue at this point it's just sad. Why don't you steal my ideas as well. I can see educating you people was a mistake. Within this thread you are nothing more than a yapper dog with nothing to contribute other than yap, yap, yap! You do however hold a 200MPH hat on someone elses bike. Build that turbo and bring it out to the mile and my 1350 will put it back on the trailer as well! It will either go on the trailer or swept up off the ground with a broom when it goes BOOM! That was funny------> Broom and BOOM!! hahahaha!!!
I've had my designs stolen my whole life so why would this be different? I do not have your huge pile of money Karl and taking my hard work would be nothing short of low down. Why don't you figure outr how to build something else worthy of competing against my 1350cc package? What's the glory of stealing someone's idea that you laughed at until Jim came here and told you all I was 100% right and on track to build a legend that is without equal. Being a man of integrity I would NEVER steal another man's hard work no matter how bad I wanted it. Where's the glory in doing that? SO you can stand there and say you figured it all out and stood your ground against the masses because you believed in something? Thinking about this all makes me sick! I never figured you or anyone else would openly steal my engine package. SO much for honor!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 30, 2012 03:17 PM
Edited By: entropy on 1 Oct 2012 01:45
quote:
(Timewarp)
1. You go ahead and steal my engine design
2. stealing my design is what you feel would be the right thing to do?
3. now you want to steal my design
4. openly steal my ideas
5. steal my hard work
6. you incist on stealing my engine deisgn.
7. KZScott you would think stealing someone's hard work is a great idea
8. Why don't you steal my ideas as well
9. I've had my designs stolen my whole life
10. What's the glory of stealing someone's idea
11. NEVER steal another man's hard work
12. I never figured you or anyone else would openly steal my engine package .
Finally:
"rest assured I won't educate you or anyone else again"
oh nooooooo, education as we know it will cease to exist
(maybe it was stolen...)
HOLY MOLY, it seems there's a meltdown on aisle 3; not sure who to call???
anyone know who to call??
Really, shouldn't we call somebody?
KZ: please call someone
(if you are not too tied up stealing things)
perhaps this site has the info needed:
http://www.drugs.com/cg/paranoid-personality-disorder.html
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted September 30, 2012 03:33 PM
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted September 30, 2012 03:57 PM
quote:
The ZX10R is giving the BMW all it wants and a little more to anyone that's not following Wold Super bike.
Roadracing is not nearly as much about motor as is drag racing. How did we go from 1/4 mile to roadracing anyway? Remind me again which class allows a 1350cc ZX-12 on the homologation list. The only parameter I mentioned was hp/cc. And $5k for a Motec system to help keep a $20k engine in one piece is a small investment.
If I'd known we were going to discuss roadracing, I probably would have been taking this thread more seriously.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted September 30, 2012 05:20 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 1 Oct 2012 01:22
quote:
.... Build that turbo and bring it out to the mile and my 1350 will put it back on the trailer as well!
Bring it to Loring, Ill be there in July. we can do 1 or 1.5 
what do you look like so I can find you? better still, Name? If you want to talk the talk, be man enough to not hide behind a keyboard LOL
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted September 30, 2012 05:50 PM
Unbelievable
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 30, 2012 06:31 PM
quote:
Unbelievable
yes indeed.
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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Timewarp
Novice Class
Posts: 51
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posted September 30, 2012 06:50 PM
Edited By: Timewarp on 1 Oct 2012 03:22
Yea unbelieveable is you guys started out spouting off that between you two and a couple more the 12R has been developed to death and there's nothing left to have and whom was I to think different? Along comes Jim and backs my statements 100% stating that at 1350 the 12R could NOT be beat if it was built the way I dscribed! Sudenly Karl is all hip to build a 1350cc 12R not racing his own knowledge but his money. No one on here or any other site has his finances to go head to head against his money. If he desired tomorrow he could have 5 12R heads in 5 different shops building off my ideas not his own 1425cc time bomb package that you and he both think is the ultimate solution. Yea I said stole my engine design because building a super lightweight 12R at 1350 is my plan not anyone else's. There's not anyone here with the brains to design or build it except Jim. And isn't it amazing how he and I can speak without issue because of mutual respect and he's not stealing my iseas. Funny how the rest of you people can do nothing on your own except pat each other on the back and a couple of yapper dogs in the background. One with every bolt on park Brock sells probably his underware as well truth be known. The other with all Muzzy's secret back shelf turbo goodies that can't break out of the 8s the 8.4's truth be spoken but yet he thinks he's an engine builder or turbo guru one I can't figure out which from his lack of performance but he's just sneaking up on it to hear him tell it. Yea that's how it's done boy. Sneak on up and by the time you get there it's in a box yet again where it stays. Don't come into my thread where intelligent men are speaking and yap like Ren and stempy!
Unbievable is telling someone how wrong they are until your engine builder held to the highest reguard says NOPE! he'r right and then you want one yourself. I'll tell you like the last person that stole one of my ideas and made it their own. You can take what I give you but remember the real knowledge is locked inside my brain and rest assured I did not give you everything. See I don't buy a kit from Muzzy or a kit from Bob Carpenter I create my own engine design and build it myself contracting whatever help I need and instructing them what to do and how to do it. When I build something I can honestly stand back and say I done that from the ground up. I wouldn't know how to say I stole another man's ideas and paid someone to make them my own.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted September 30, 2012 07:31 PM
Astounding
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 30, 2012 08:40 PM
Edited By: entropy on 1 Oct 2012 04:48
quote:
...remember the real knowledge is locked inside my brain and rest assured I did not give you everything.....
oh no!!!
locked in his brain?
how am i going to finish my 1348 build?
i HAVE to call it a "1348 build" because Timewarp has apparently patented the "1350 build".
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted September 30, 2012 09:34 PM
Just to be clear.
Doug's original statement:
quote:
Between Rob Muzzy, Karl, Jim, and me, there isn't much that is possible that hasn't been tried.
Timewarp's most recent statement:
quote:
Yea unbelieveable is you guys started out spouting off that between you two and a couple more the 12R has been developed to death and there's nothing left to have and whom was I to think different? Along comes Jim and backs my statements 100% ... There's not anyone here with the brains to design or build it except Jim.
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