TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2011 08:35 PM
Y2K ZX-12 Fuel/Injector limits?
Just curious what are the HP limits with stock injectors, stock pressure, and a Muzzy (Walbro) fuel pump? I am running pump gas and no timing. I was thinking about adding a little timing and some race gas. I think I am about 10-12% away from hitting fuel limits. If my calculations are correct, I would say somewhere around 240-245HP. If you all had any input (Entropy) it would be much appreciated.
Thank you all much,
Gary
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entropy
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posted March 13, 2011 12:02 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 13 Mar 2011 08:02
hey Gary,
240-245hp on motor??? holy schitt, you have that 12 set up!!!!!!
I ran out of injector WAY before 235hp on my 12
IIRC, i was running Bosch 430's @ 55psi on the 1427 when it was making 235-240 with dc in the 88-90range
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shiphteey
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posted March 13, 2011 05:20 AM
Gary, 240 HP on stock (A1) injectors and Muzzy pump? Won't work, trust me on this, get bigger injectors or a fuel pressure regulator.
I've had my nitrous cut out in 6th on spray enough to figure it out once I logged...injectors were maxing out....NO GOOD!
Keep that shit up you're asking for trouble.....I MIGHT risk it in the 1/4...but LSR. Nope.
A.
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Shane661
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posted March 13, 2011 07:25 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Mar 2011 15:26
Gary, here are some calcualtors that can give you an idea of what size injectors you might need. It will also allow you get an idea of how fuel pressure affects injector capacity:
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
Keep in mind that there is a limit to how high you can go on fuel pressure without some adverse impact. I believe Karl ran his stock injectors as high as 70 psi, but some have said that is too much.
Shane
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2011 07:37 AM
Yeah, I was afraid of that. I was hoping the range was 250 or so. I do not think I will be anywhere close to 240 or 250, but I think I could see mid 230's fairly easy. I might have to bump the fuel pressure to 60psi if my duty cycle ends up a little too high. No worries, I will heed your advice Shiphteey. Entropy, I think you mentioned that Marc at Factory Pro has a nice little fuel pressure regulator for the old 12? If not, where did you get yours? Also I can't remember where the regulator is at, on the rail I think? I can't believe I don't remember seeing it after all the times I have had that bike apart.
Yep, the old girl has been running great, just been riding around town a little........its fun! Pulls strong even with 19/46. I'll probably ride out to the Texas Mile, see if I can't get a couple other people to ride out with me too.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2011 07:38 AM
Very cool, thanks Shane.
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KZScott
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posted March 13, 2011 08:18 AM
Im not sure where we are with duty cycle on dads 00, but it was running a dry shot just fine last yr for 1/4 mile
stock pump, stock inj, stock pressure. 25s i think in the map up top
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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entropy
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posted March 13, 2011 08:56 AM
Edited By: entropy on 13 Mar 2011 16:57
nothing easy about getting mid 230's hp on motor with a Zx12, you and Johnnie have built a beast. HTH did you get so much hp?
Did i miss something and you are spraying a lil dry shot?
On the 2000, 2001 the FPR is on the R side of the rail. I believe 2002+ went to a single line to the rail with the FPR in the tank.
nope, not Marc at FP; I got my FPR from Summit (i think), but i would sure go to bigger injectors 1st before adding the FPR.
No simple place to mount the FPR on the 12, but i squeezed mine in below the TB's on the left side.
if you have 90%dc with yr current set up (330-stock injectors) and are just gonna add timing & oxy fuel, the 430 Bosch should be more than enough. I got the 430's from Tim Marren.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2011 09:18 AM
Entropy we just follow all your instructions on how to build a beast of a 12. Seriously, your the Knecum of ZX-12 motors. I do believe I have 28's in the map. I think JC said that with 38's in, your right at or beyond the limits. JC also split the maps and trimmed each individual cylinder for a few extra ponnies. He has been super busy with Texas Mile and Salt bikes, so I will probably wait to add timing and oxy fuel tessting after the Texas Mile. Right now I will pull the pipe and get a bung put in for data logging. Then it'll be dyno session, and fix the nitrous stuff.
Nope, no dry shot. I still need to pull the muzzy wet kit out of the frame and fix the leak. If I can get 230HP out of the motor, then I'll go conservative with a little 40-60 shot.
As a side note, it has been very interesting to watch EGT's on the bike while riding around town. Very interesting curve, being on a slightly rich to slightly lean side.
Gary
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2000redrocket
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posted March 13, 2011 05:16 PM
hey gary that sounds great. just be carefull while you are only watching EGT. it can be decieving sometimes.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2011 06:43 PM
Yes sir, EGT is just for fun for me. I will be hooking up an A/F data logging system real soon.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 14, 2011 10:40 AM
230 hp? And that engine is how big?
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KZScott
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posted March 14, 2011 01:46 PM
1394?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 15, 2011 06:48 PM
Actually 223HP on pump gas and no timing. I figure a little timing and oxy race gas would get me to the 230HP range. That test will have to wait till after the Texas Mile as JC is super busy with LSR bikes.
Yes sir, just a Plain Jane 1394. LOL
Bear Racing stacks(Vincent Hill), bored TBs, old welded up Carpenter head (ss valves and Muzzy spring kit), Muzzy cams, Off the rack/shelf JE pistons, old weld up lightened Marine crank, old reconditioned falicon knife rods, couple extra oiling spigots in cases for rods/pistons, cut Robinson tranny (low 1st and VH/Robinson OD 5th & 6thGears), lighter 02--> rotor, Muzzy pipe, a couple other things here and there, and last but not least a JohnnyCheese tune and build.
JC said he would still like to tweek on the maps some more, but has just ran out of time for now. Runs great on the street though. Few hundred miles and I just changed the filter and oil, looks good. I'll see about posting up a Dyno graph after the Texas Mile.
Gary
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Shane661
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posted March 15, 2011 06:58 PM
quote:
Actually 223HP on pump gas and no timing. I figure a little timing and oxy race gas would get me to the 230HP range. That test will have to wait till after the Texas Mile as JC is super busy with LSR bikes.
Yes sir, just a Plain Jane 1394. LOL
Bear Racing stacks(Vincent Hill), bored TBs, old welded up Carpenter head (ss valves and Muzzy spring kit), Muzzy cams, Off the rack/shelf JE pistons, old weld up lightened Marine crank, old reconditioned falicon knife rods, couple extra oiling spigots in cases for rods/pistons, cut Robinson tranny (low 1st and VH/Robinson OD 5th & 6thGears), lighter 02--> rotor, Muzzy pipe, a couple other things here and there, and last but not least a JohnnyCheese tune and build.
JC said he would still like to tweek on the maps some more, but has just ran out of time for now. Runs great on the street though. Few hundred miles and I just changed the filter and oil, looks good. I'll see about posting up a Dyno graph after the Texas Mile.
Gary
Sounds great, Gary! Is that 223 STD? What kind of Dyno does Johnny use?
I bet that thing is fun around town...I'd need to lose a lot of compression to use Karl's old 1427 on the street. 
Shane
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 15, 2011 07:19 PM
I am not sure SAE or STD, I was looking at A/F more than anything else. I was also looking at the curve and tq, but in my old age I can't remember that or even what kind of peak tq it made. I'll see about getting the chart this sat and posting it.
1427 on street...............just add a little C-16. I think Entropy ran that on low octane, like 98 while racing. Ethonal tune? LOL
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Shane661
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posted March 15, 2011 07:21 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 16 Mar 2011 03:23
Yeah, it runs on C-44...$50 a gallon. 
That fuel is odd. Stoich is 12.XX vs 14.XX for most other fuels. Confuses my little brain.
I defintely plan on softening the motor up a little, for peace of mind, and running cheaper fuel. So many irons in the fire...
Shane
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entropy
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posted March 15, 2011 11:42 PM
Edited By: entropy on 16 Mar 2011 07:56
Shane,
run it on Q-16 ($70 a jug) without lowering the CR, you'll be fine. Lose a couple hp wrt C-44, no biggie.
I tried C-16, lost something like 10hp against C-44.
My grand experience building that 1427 was WAY fun, taught me alot.
Most of all it taught me that once in 235-245 range, chasing 2-3hp is a shit load of work & $$$, AND exactly the same build does not produce exactly the same numbers.
with the Busa, i am not planning 25 complete rebuilds and 50+ dyno sessions to increase 20 hp, nope.
.
Gary,
what is yr CR???
Me, i wouldn't bother with any more dyno time if it runs fine on the street.
Even with JC's mad dyno skills, logging at the track is the way to go.
Start rich for the first pass, go leaner as necessary.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 16, 2011 07:20 AM
Yep, I don't have the $$$ to chase HP, But if I can get a little extra with just race fuel and timing, I'll shoot for it................but after that I'm done...............except for a little juice. lol.
Yep, Busa........few more CC's sure helps...............But even if you ran a 1397 or 1430 Busa, you would be hard pressed to get 235HP out of it and 245HP would be almost unheard of. So I have to give you some big Credit Karl for what you were able to do to that old 12 of yours. It's simply amazing.
I can not remember off hand what the compression ratio is, or what compression is. I have it written down somewhere in my manual at the shop. Last build it was around 13.5-13.8:1 and not much has changed. I think my leak down was real low, like 1.5-2% accross the board. That may not last long as I kind of lapped the F**k out of the valves (I took the Dewalt to it while watching TV). Novice mistake by me, Johnny just laughed when I told him how I manhandled it.
Gary
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 16, 2011 08:28 AM
Sorry Shane, forgot to answer one of your Q's. Dyno: I think DJ250i with the eddie current brake.
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