whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 25, 2010 12:04 AM
jim, doug, other wizards
so, as you guys know, my turbo motor is THIS close to coming together.
as this is not my first engine build by a long shot, i am probably going deeper into thid one than anything before.
what do you think ( even tho it may or may not relate to my build... but i just want to know to KNOW) is a good starting point on learning all the head and port magic?
that is a mystical lace i know little about. the engineer side of me has to know how to figure our harmonics, when reversion will occur, what cam timing would be optimal, how the MCSA and choke CSA affects stuff, and how to find it exactly.
theres a black art to it and i'd really like to start getting serious in this shit. i'm tired of knowing enough to be dangerous. i have NEVER in 7 years had a bad build, and have build podium-placing motors.. not bad for no formal schooling at all.. BUT i really want to take my game to the next level.
any thoughts?
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
  
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted September 25, 2010 12:21 AM
Get some engine sim software, run some sims and look for trends. Then get different sim software and see if the stuff you learned carries over and correlates well to the new code. That's got to be the fastest and cheapest way I can think of.
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 25, 2010 12:26 AM
 Edited By: whitehendrix on 25 Sep 2010 08:27
good idea tim. thank you.
at this time tho i gotta hold off on buying software til i heal up and get back to work to be able to afford it!! haha.
i'm currently reading this
http://my.prostreetonline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1639.htm
seems pretty good so far. alot of elementary stuff to start it off, but seems good so far.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
|
posted September 25, 2010 04:40 AM
Trial by error......I`ve been to some top line head porting guys shops and saw piles of cyl. heads that didn`t work as good as he wanted and saw some that are on bikes running record numbers.....And a flow bench,clay and lots of sanding barrels.....
____________
Life in the Fast Lane..........
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 25, 2010 05:31 PM
i am the person who HATES to waste. can't stand it.. as well, i have literally no money right now.. lol so, i cant buy heads to play on and can't buy or make a flowbench or anything at this time..
i do understand that that is part of the game. hell. it'll definitely be that way when i turbo and retrofit EFI on my dinosaur.. simply because THAT combo hasn't been done. efi? yes. turbo? yes. but never together. and even tho ppl have turbo'd their 7Rs and i could just copy them, i have "pretended" it hasn't been done. did no guesswork. actually sat down, crunched numbers, compared turbo compressor maps. did the math... i like in-depth detailed stuff.
i simply don't have the time or money at this point to spend hours porting and doing other stuff that isn't "quite" universal. i can't dyno those heads i hog out and make judgements based off it. if i learn that porting tiny little spots and doing "this and that" to a Busa head nets retarded amounts of power, then i learned something.. BUT that ONLY applies to a Busa then.. it's not gonna be universal..
the numbers, theory, technical jargon and all that apply to everything.. from cars to bikes to cessnas to weed wackers..
i absolutely WILL get to that point of extreme experimentation.. i just don't see it as a great learning tool at the time when i need so much more than a die grinder and dyed water to truly see whats going on in the engine..
thank you tho. i appreciate your input man!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
|
posted September 25, 2010 06:06 PM
Yes,After I wrote that post I realized that you aren`t looking for the kind of advise I wrote....You actually want hard facts and numbers that apply to you/your bike....Sorry bout that....But I totally understand about the $$$$ thing.....
I tried to do it myself once with a KZ motor....When through a lot of head gaskets...Port it and try it at the track,change it,port it some more in a different spot, try it at the track,ect.ect.ect......No flow bench and no money.....That was the only way I could have done it back then, or pay someone $1000`s plus, to do it...... But I hear what your saying brother.....
Good luck with it,you have made good progress with that bike/motor.....
Paul....
____________
Life in the Fast Lane..........
|
BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
|
posted September 25, 2010 06:13 PM
If money is an issue like you say..how critical is a ported cylinder head on a turbo application?? Probably best money could be spent on a really good valve job and maybe some under seat clean up. Why don't you give Jim Y2K a call ?
____________
Orient Express Top Street Bike Winner 8-4-07
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 25, 2010 06:27 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 26 Sep 2010 02:28
Have Jim do your head.
He spends his days learning so you don't have to. You don't have the time or the money. Guys like us have learned because people were PAYING US to do the work, and in the course of that, we learned. When you build race engines or port heads for a living 60+ hours a week for years, you learn or fail. If you want to, buy some software, read some books and take your best shot for the fun of it, that's cool. But if you want to have the best thing right out of the box, send the head to somebody like Jim, bolt it on ,and tune away.
Sim software and fluid dynamics has changed everything in the last 10 years. Lots that we thought worked... well, not so much. Some little things we never thought were important turn out to be very important. Multi axis CNC allows for a port made to a design, not just modified from another design. Have a pro do it, seriously.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 25, 2010 08:13 PM
well, Dr. Jim does not have a program for the P model 7R head the last time i spoke with him, and to my knowledge, it is not worth his valuable time to write a program for 1 single head.. and i certainly don't have the money for that, nor can i bribe the gentleman.
i'm thinking head work + boost isn't THAT important. alot of laws go out the window with boost. i am doing my own work regardless.. but i will not polish the ports. just merely removing the casting boogers. what i have seen referred to as a "race port" for some reason. the rough surface is supposed to enhance laminar flow.. again. this is just what i've read... of course, how important laminar flow is under boost is still a question to me. that is something i wish to learn.
my whole point is i WANT to be the one guys are paying to build motors. thats my whole thing here. that is why i'm building this bike. this isn't for fun or a hobby. this is what i want to do for a promotional tool for my own shop.
i am tired of being some low-balled shade tree guy who "knows his shit" for a small-shop guy.
i want BIG stuff. i want to be one of the best. i want to be on a level you you guys some day. i'd love to be among the names in someones link when they are speaking engineering and performance. Doug, Jim.. you guys are renowned for it.
this has always been a dream of mine. to build race engines. to build absolutely badass machines and not do it out of luck.
as i said. i HAVE built badass race motors. but i would be lying to you if it was a truly blueprinted, top to bottom, custom built, uber engineered work of art like you guys build.
those have been mild tweaks and big bore kits and such. nothing fancy. something i can teach my hotass MILF neighbor.
i dunno. i'm not around THAT much and you guys in a way sorta don't know how i am.. but when i don't understand something, i want to learn it all. i was a noob with electrical stuff.
what do i do? get a controls engineering and PLC programming degree.
didn't understand turbos or anything. so, i started playing with turbo motors..... 7 years ago.
i personally feel i am at the point where when people start talking harmonics and all these different advanced things, i want to follow along flawlessly AND contribute.
i'm really not looking to have some $10,000 exotic head on my bike with BeCu seats, Ti retainers and sodium-filled valves. Doug, you told me in person to keep it simple. and i wish to stick to your words.
i just want to learn it so if i DO need to apply it, i may. when you guys start going in-depth on port stuff and engine building i start to feel like a damn retard.. and I'M the one on other boards getting floods of PMs about how to build stuff! haha
i just see an area of interest and i'd like to further my education.
will i make a living every day off it like Dr. Jim does? no. i am not looking into owning a 5-axis Haas and making my money on that.. but i would like to at least know about the tip of the iceberg that is head work and the black magic in general.
i'm very much a "rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it" kinda guy.
thank you guys for your replies and time so far
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted September 26, 2010 03:35 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 26 Sep 2010 11:58
quote:
Get some engine sim software, run some sims and look for trends. Then get different sim software and see if the stuff you learned carries over and correlates well to the new code. That's got to be the fastest and cheapest way I can think of.
+1
Looking at trending is key and then comparing it to real world data after the build is also key.
Like Doug said, we do the R&D so you don't have to. I don't grind or make trans gears because other professional people do them, so i don't have to. I also don't design cam ramps or cam shapes on piston skirts, or connecting rods, etc....
You only have one pie of time and you have to learn to divide it up that's going to help you and your company the best. There are many things that in the long run, its faster, cheaper, and just plain better to have someone else do it for you.
Use your time doing the things that at the end of the day make you the most productive.
This may sound like common sense and overly simple advice but its sound advice.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted September 26, 2010 04:09 AM
WH, as far as learning the "Black magic" of porting..... its really the process of getting to the final product that is where the "Black Magic" is.
What you need to do to the port can be figured out from reading several technical books.
I recommend "the design and simulation of four stroke engines" by Gordon Blair. its about $90. I warn you thou, its not "fun" reading (well for most normal people). Its very dry and to the point with no let up of information overload. 9 out of 10 people who would buy this book will read a few little bits of the book and never bother to ever open it again. Its that dry and "not fun" to read. Its more like a reference book.
Its not going to tell you "how" to port a head or where or what to grind in a particular port. But its going to give you the info or "tools" to figure out what you need to do to the port to make the port do what you are asking of it.
But you need to know what to ask the port to do for you. This book will also help with that.
If you are a member of SAE then you can get the book for about $80 I think.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 26, 2010 07:13 AM
You have a hotass MILF Neighbor? Where is it you live again?
I think Y2 and Tim have given you the correct advice. What I learned about port design was from looking at the ports I or the team I was working for bought from people who had created quite a pile of cast iron and aluminum dust and chips to create.
The new sim software saves all that hand work and hours on the flowbench, but also requires a more cerebral type of work, but no less dedication to learning. Dive in.
A great source of trends in race engine design is Race Engine Technology magazine, published by the same company that publishes Racecar Engineering. It's published in England and is pretty expensive (around $18 US per issue) you can buy back issues (google it). Some LARGE magazine stores carry it.
There is a sort of shortcut to seeing what is there in a free online digest version,go to:
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/welcome/
I think that the rational approach for someone building customer engines would be to learn a few of the basics that apply to virtually any stock port (smoothing, seat matching, short side radius curve, multi-angle valve setups, etc) and learn do that basic, not very time consuming, work. This will require buying some tools. For jobs beyond that, buy headwork from a pro that does only that, look and learn and give your customers a predictable, quality product at the same time.
D.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 07:14 AM
thank you Jim! really appreciate it. you do bring a good point up.. but i have a pretty solid feeling you CAN grind gears and cams and such if you wanted to, since you have both the machinery to do it and the knowledge to back it up..
my goal really is to be one of the best builders in this area . i know it won't happen overnight and i'm not expecting that. this could take 10 years. but thats just that much earlier i can get there if i start now instead of never doing it or starting 3 years from now.
once i get back to work i will look into getting sim software and the book. i most of the stuff i've read is pretty dry and "not fun" but.. oh well. lol
i wasn't entirely sure porting and/or polishing my head would net me all that much so i opted originally to just touch up the casting boogers, take down some of the shoulder around the valves and polish the bowls. i mean i figured when you port any motor it's beneficial when done right.. these are things i am not 100% solid on and wish to be.. lol. perfect example of why i'd like to cram my skull full of technodrivel.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 07:24 AM
Doug ya snuck in there on me. haha
I'm in sunny warm wilmington Nc southeast of maxton! yes. this place is overflowing with gorgeous ladies.. hahaaa
as always you bring great points and great info.. by my noob kicked in as soon as you said "short-side radius curve".. stuff like that is what i need to learn.
i know how to do multi angle grinds and match seats, do basic head maintenance and service.. but it's getting balls-deep into cam and ignition timing and what the perfect oil gap is for this application and what the perfct ring gap is for that application that i want to embed in my brain.
it might have been two or 3 years ago, but someone was talking about blow-by. Jim mentioned mapping blow-by with a flow meter. brilliant idea. he also said there was a point at which it rises exponentially to a peak value, THAT indicates ring flutter,
makes sense. he then said that by closing the 2nd ring gap you can move the RPM at which flutter occurs up in the rev range.
THAT is the type of nitty gritty stuff ii love. i literally read and re-read that post for probably an hour until it was saturated in my mind.. hopefully it truly DID saturate because i am pretty damn sure thats what he said specifically. but. without stumbling on his post i would have never known that.
thats the kinda really cool stuff i'd love to know.
Doug, thanks again for your input man. i appreciate it.
maxton isn't far from wilmington either 
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted September 26, 2010 08:28 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 26 Sep 2010 16:30
quote:
it might have been two or 3 years ago, but someone was talking about blow-by. Jim mentioned mapping blow-by with a flow meter. brilliant idea. he also said there was a point at which it rises exponentially to a peak value, THAT indicates ring flutter,
makes sense. he then said that by closing the 2nd ring gap you can move the RPM at which flutter occurs up in the rev range.
No you need to open up the 2nd ring gap extra to help relieve the pressure build up between thew top 2 rings. The pressure between them is one of the major contributors to ring flutter becasue it unseats the top ring.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted September 26, 2010 08:43 AM
tomato tomahto
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:27 PM
quote:
quote:
it might have been two or 3 years ago, but someone was talking about blow-by. Jim mentioned mapping blow-by with a flow meter. brilliant idea. he also said there was a point at which it rises exponentially to a peak value, THAT indicates ring flutter,
makes sense. he then said that by closing the 2nd ring gap you can move the RPM at which flutter occurs up in the rev range.
No you need to open up the 2nd ring gap extra to help relieve the pressure build up between thew top 2 rings. The pressure between them is one of the major contributors to ring flutter becasue it unseats the top ring.
THIS. lmao see? that is what i mean. .haha.. i didn't understand the dynamics as to why this was the cure.. and i turned out to be wrong as well. but i was really close for remembering what you said at least. so, i don't feel like a COMPLETE idiot. haha
THANK you sir for correcting me. i have amended that in my brain.
this is exactly the kind of "inside track" stuff i want to learn.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:31 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Sep 2010 22:33
For a turbo application, don't waste your time with too much porting. 1 lb. of boost will add more hp than you would gain, in many cases. Many, many very fast turbo bikes with no porting at all.
Turbo pistons are no mystery...call the company you intend to use.
Just my .02....
Shane
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:34 PM
oh absolutely and that was kinda my mentality on it.. as for pistons i will be calling john at JE when i can afford that step.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:37 PM
Last I knew, Noonan was long gone from JE...
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:41 PM
well. shit. .haha. either way i'll call JE. i'm sure SOMEONE there can hook my ass up with what i need.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:42 PM
You might also try CP.
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:43 PM
i have a list. JE was at he top.. but i am also definitely going to work off pricing or *possible* sponsorship of sorts if at all possible.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:46 PM
JE certainly doesn't have the best rep as of late....good luck. 
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
|
posted September 26, 2010 02:52 PM
hmm. thank you for the heads up sir!! i wil lresearch CP then!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC