posted August 03, 2010 04:05 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 3 Aug 2010 13:00
Thanks guys. Rickey did a great job this weekend. He is a first class act and has a lot of good input.
This engine was on the bench apart just 2 weeks ago and the body was in primer. So we basically put the bike together in a few short weeks.
That alone wouldn't be such a big deal but we have a completely different after market fuel injection system that has never been on a zx14. We were so tight on time at the end that we only had time for two short dyno sessions.
I'm happy with the results of this completely new zx14 configuration but there is plenty of power still to be found with this engine. We have a ton of important info to go over in the next few weeks and I'm looking forward to making the changes on the next build.
I'm confident we can make the Kawasaki ZX-14 a true competitor to the Busa in the N/A 1650 classes.
Stay tuned this is just beginning for Compoetition CNC's LSR zx14
I cant believe this rod is in 1 piece going by the damage...
Seen that a few times ... Damn..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
posted August 04, 2010 03:46 AM
Great vids!!! Thanks for posting them.
A note on shanes 211 mph pass last year..... not to take anything away from him or what anyone else did last year but we had a 15 mph tail wind when these records were set on Sunday..
To put this in perspective, my 1427 zx12r with Doug Meyer on it last year at Loring did 218.9 mph with 222 dynojet RWHP. Karls zx12 that had previously gone 208 went 221.
So my 12 this year would have gone more like 205 and karl would have gone 208 and shane would have gone 198, or so, you get my point anyway. Everyone went a personal best Sunday in 09 and not just by a little.
So it puts the 217 with no tail wind and slight cross wind into perspective.
Also the 237 mph pass in the gas class would have been low to mid 220's. That we wouldn't have been able to touch this year even with the tail wind we had last year.
That 237 will be there for a while.
posted August 04, 2010 03:57 AM
Scott, actually the rod is in two pieces. the bearing is pounded out of it. Amazingly enough the bore on the big end is smooth and you still see the hone marks. There wasn't much heat involved in this failure. The engine went into severe detonation and pounded the rod bearing out like doh. the bearing shell is about .015" thick and squeezed out around the rod and crank. The crank journal looks good. Its smooth and almost looks like you could polish it up and run it. There was no time for any major heat buildup as you can see be the very small amount of blueing around the rods big end.
Usually when you spin a bearing there is major heat buildup and the heat is what causes the final failure. This failure is mechanical due to the extreme g forces of the rod being jerked down from TDC due to very large rod bearing clearance due to being pounded out from severe detonation.
The last piece of the puzzle is to determine the cause of the detonation on the #2 cylinder.
My first guess is the 98 octane c44. but there could be and injector issue. I will have the injectors tested for flow again and see if one partially clogged up. If the other 3 cylinders are in good shape then its a problem specific to that hole. but it will have to wait until we get back to the shop next week.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
A note on shanes 211 mph pass last year..... not to take anything away from him or what anyone else did last year but we had a 15 mph tail wind when these records were set on Sunday..
To put this in perspective, my 1427 zx12r with Doug Meyer on it last year at Loring did 218.9 mph with 222 dynojet RWHP. Karls zx12 that had previously gone 208 went 221.
So my 12 this year would have gone more like 205 and karl would have gone 208 and shane would have gone 198, or so, you get my point anyway. Everyone went a personal best Sunday in 09 and not just by a little.
So it puts the 217 with no tail wind and slight cross wind into perspective.
Also the 237 mph pass in the gas class would have been low to mid 220's. That we wouldn't have been able to touch this year even with the tail wind we had last year.
That 237 will be there for a while.
Actually, Jim, I went 198 into the head/cross wind on Saturday at Loring last year...and that was a bad pass with 3 missed shifts (airshifter was not turned on...duh).
My estimation is that the wind added somewhere around 7 mph to our speeds last year. My bike had previously went 193.84 at Maxton, in June heat, with 2500 DA and 1/2 a mile less to run. Meaning, I fully anticipate that my stock motor bike would go 203+ in still conditions at Loring. These bikes do keep accelerating past the 1 mile mark.
This is not to dispute, but clarify. In that regard, I believe that Karl's bike would see closer to 214 mph given the still conditions. When you factor in the what, 10-12 hp difference between the two engines (yours vs. Karl's), that seems right in line with your 14 running 3 mph faster.
posted August 04, 2010 06:01 AM
Shane, yea its possible that we only got a 7mph boost. Were just guessing and playing what if....... I personally believe that the added speed boost from tail wind was well into the double digits.
I just cut open the oil filter... its free of any metal etc. Its like a new filter.
This tells me that the failure happened extremely fast after the severe detonation started.
This also explains why the crank and rod are not black from heat.
The small amount of heat built up was a byproduct of mechanical failure not the cause failure like in a spun bearing.
All that's left now it to inspect the head gasket and flow test the injectors next week.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted August 04, 2010 06:13 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 4 Aug 2010 14:25
quote:Great vids!!! Thanks for posting them.
A note on shanes 211 mph pass last year..... not to take anything away from him or what anyone else did last year but we had a 15 mph tail wind when these records were set on Sunday..
To put this in perspective, my 1427 zx12r with Doug Meyer on it last year at Loring did 218.9 mph with 222 dynojet RWHP. Karls zx12 that had previously gone 208 went 221.
So my 12 this year would have gone more like 205 and karl would have gone 208 and shane would have gone 198, or so, you get my point anyway. Everyone went a personal best Sunday in 09 and not just by a little.
So it puts the 217 with no tail wind and slight cross wind into perspective.
Also the 237 mph pass in the gas class would have been low to mid 220's. That we wouldn't have been able to touch this year even with the tail wind we had last year.
That 237 will be there for a while.
Not trying to split hairs here, but you're a little mixed up.
The tailwind last year was a steady 15mph with gusts up to like 25mph. It's almost sounding like the 218.9mph and 221mph runs were done with that low figure of 15mph. I'm sure it's unintentional, but the way you portray the conditions of THOSE runs... it's rather misleading.
Karl's 208mph run was at Texas when they too had a big 15-20mph tailwind. Apples to apples Karl himself picked up 8-10mph from the 1 mile to the 1.5 mile in similar conditions. (Like I said earlier, that's the norm). Karl's 230+rwhp 1427cc ZX-12R 1 mile speeds in CALM COOL conditions is roughly 204-205mph on a good run. That was his best at Maxton and Miami. Typically, a 15mph tailwind is worth 3+mph in the mile. Your 218.9mph Loring run would most likely translate into a 201-202mph run in calm conditions in the mile with Doug Meyer in the saddle on your 220rwhp 1427cc ZX-12R.
No doubt 217mph with no wind is fast, but when you take away 8mph for the extra 0.5mile distance.... it's really a 209mph bike in the mile.
We had a Satellite team (T.Scott Jones Racing) with just headwork, cams, and a +2mm piston kit on a Busa streetbike (it runs fine on pump gas too). He went 213mph on motor at Loring last weekend. Just earlier this year at Maxton in similar conditions he went 204mph on the same exact set-up (aside from gearing of course). Roughly 8-9mph gain from the distance alone.... just like everyone else.
Not taking anything away from you guys, I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for RG, TFA, their bikes and accomplishments.... just trying to keep things real.
At the end of the day, YOU GUYS HAVE THE FASTEST N/A ZX-14 SPEED ON RECORD.... and for that I personally applaud your efforts and thank you for keeping us green-blooded folk in high spirits!
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
posted August 04, 2010 06:31 AM
I'd have to disagree that the extra .5 in distance it generically worth the extra mph you think its worth.
I think it depends on the bike etc. and the rate of acceleration. In other words the more powerful the bike the faster it gets up to speed.
An example is r after talking with Scott G. about a few things Rickey rode Brenda sues bike .5 miles down the track at 30 mph before he got on it. Yes he told the starter he was going to do this so no one would be alarmed.
Anyway, the bike ran the same speed... 185 mph exactly as Scott G. had predicted.
So my point is that you cant just assume that the added .5 miles is going to translate into a faster speed. In many cases it might, but its an automatic thing.
Maybe Dean can explain it better. He's run at the other venues as well.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted August 04, 2010 07:13 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 4 Aug 2010 17:15
You can disagree all you want, you can't take the exception and use it as the rule. It's that simple.
Karl's monster stroker 12 picked up roughly 8mph from the distance, T.Scott Jones picked up 8mph from the distance, my STOCK MOTOR ZX-12R picked up 8mph, a dozen or so STOCK MOTOR bikes down here picked up 8mph, and the list goes on ....
Heck, Ace Performance just recently built a N/A Busa for none other than Charlie A. (Busa200). For those who don't know... he went 260mph at Maxton on a Dave0 built Turbo Busa a couple years back. He just took his N/A Busa and ran it in the 2 mile and went 228mph on GPS. There's a thread on Suzukihayabusa.org where this is discussed.
There's NO WAY he could do that speed in the standing mile. But you're saying that if he had another 30rwhp like your ZX-14.... he would hit 228mph in the mile and then stop accelerating? Let's be clear... that's exactly what you're implying. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
As for Brenda's bike.... I'm a little confused with the lack of information you gave when giving that example. What did the bike run with Rickey in th 1.5 mile, was he even the rider who did 185mph in the full 1.5 mile? Were both runs done in similar conditions? Are we talking apples to apples or apples to watermellons here? Let's make something clear, BONE STOCK MOTOR 150-160rwhp bikes still pick up big mph with the extra distance. This is no secret, that's why all the magazines test these stock bikes with a 2 mile run. This is not a matter of opinion, this is based on results over many years.
Of course it's not automatic. If the bike is built improperly, if there's a problem, or if the rider is doing his best impression of a parachute...it will fall on it's face and won't continue accelerating. With healthy well-built engines, they continue to pull speed well beyond the mile regardless of how quickly it gets up to speed.
Jim, if I'm missing something here, I'm always willing to learn and will gladly apologize if I'm in any way inaccurate in my position. I'm very interested in hearing more about yours.
In fact, I'll make it simple for you to prove your case. Show us the log session of some of the runs. It will show clear as day how long it took your ZX-14 to get up to 217mph by looking at the TIME vs RPM.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
posted August 04, 2010 08:19 AM
Why is the rod flush with the mating surfaces on one side and not the other? It looks like the bolt snapped.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
posted August 04, 2010 09:34 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 4 Aug 2010 17:58
quote:Shane, yea its possible that we only got a 7mph boost. Were just guessing and playing what if....... I personally believe that the added speed boost from tail wind was well into the double digits.
LOL!
10-15mph = 3-4mph boost.....
The 20+mph gusts you guys had was certainly worth around 7mph...
You'd need a good 30-40mph winds to flirt with "Double Digit" gains. Just ask the UK guys who went to JD9.
Jim, there's really nothing to be guessing about, all these scenarios have been played out before... data has been collected, analyzed, and discussed on the forums at one point or another.
I don't mean to take a crap on your thread, but everything you keep saying is way off base and it always seems to cast a favorable light on your ZX-14's performance results. I'm sure it's unintentional, but that's how it's coming across. I'm not trying to be a dick here, just keeping it real.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
quote:OMG there's an argument on the internet!! Over top speeds of motorcycles!!!!
LOL Yea imagine that.....
Pete, the rod snapped on one side from the excessive g loading just after TDC and bent the cap (and extra piece of upper rod half) over to one side before the other side rod bolt snapped off. the other rod bolt is still intact.
The g loading also ripped the pin from the bottom of the piston.
Sherman has a vid from the finish line of the run. He said it was an instant "explosion" and no skip it just went boom.
The top of the pistons will tell me a lot next week. still at Popham on vacation this week.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
A note on shanes 211 mph pass last year..... not to take anything away from him or what anyone else did last year but we had a 15 mph tail wind when these records were set on Sunday..
To put this in perspective, my 1427 zx12r with Doug Meyer on it last year at Loring did 218.9 mph with 222 dynojet RWHP. Karls zx12 that had previously gone 208 went 221.
So my 12 this year would have gone more like 205 and karl would have gone 208 and shane would have gone 198, or so, you get my point anyway. Everyone went a personal best Sunday in 09 and not just by a little.
So it puts the 217 with no tail wind and slight cross wind into perspective.
Also the 237 mph pass in the gas class would have been low to mid 220's. That we wouldn't have been able to touch this year even with the tail wind we had last year.
That 237 will be there for a while.
Jim, I'm going to have to disagree with you here, especially on the latter note! Forstall/Deluca bust their ass and run class leading speeds. Their 237 mph pass was with a BLOWN HEAD GASKET. If the motor had held up I'm sure they were on their way to 240+. And saying they "would have been low to mid 220s" is nonsense because they already went 228 and change IN THE MILE AT MAXTON!
The speed gains that some are projecting seem pretty sound to me.
I've run 203 in the standing mile, NAKED, with a slipping clutch no less. I'll offset the slight tailwind with the heat for argument sake.
I ran a best of 229.6 at Loring including 1 pass that was 227 mph on the rev limiter for 10 seconds with logs to show it. The 229.6 pass was with low nitrous but I made the decision to run instead of wait and potentially NOT run.
I've projected, and don't feel I'm far off, that I'd run about 215 in the standing mile. I'm pretty light, the 12 is pretty light, and it puts down pretty good power so most here probably wouldn't argue with that projection. So I don't think the tailwind at Loring was worth 15 mph ... if so it would seem that I wouldn't be able to pull much past the mile marker...and I can tell you my 12 was SCREAMING at Loring ... especially in 6th were I could just keep building power on the bottle and sit tight in my tuck.
My 2 cents.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
posted August 04, 2010 01:01 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 4 Aug 2010 21:08
quote:OMG there's an argument on the internet!! Over top speeds of motorcycles!!!!
Congrats Jim, fantastic effort with a brand-new build of a new platform. Good luck with the rebuild, I'l bet it will come out stronger.
Dean
LMAO Dean! Also a huge congrats on your runs this past weekend. Amazing speeds for sure.
I agree. Great job with the 14 Jim. Especially since it was a last minute thrash to even be able to run the bike at Loring this year. I have no doubt it will be even faster the next time out.
I plan to make the trip next year for sure. Just wasn't in the cards this time.
posted August 04, 2010 05:15 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 5 Aug 2010 02:49
Jim, I'm curious, what prompted you to switch to the lower octane fuel? I am not very familar with VP fuels outside of C16 and MR9.
posted August 04, 2010 11:14 PM
Brenda & I got back to TFA HQ in Sugar Land Tx at 3pm on Wed. Cool to be having coffee with Jim & Jaime in Popham, Maine on Tues am, then BBQ in Texas on Wed afternoon.
I LOVE all this analysis, 8mph here, 5mph there, i ran this here, that there, Jim shoulda, coulda, woulda.
Bottom line is Jim's bike has the hp to run the numbers and it will have more.
Gotta remember he came straight off the dyno, newly designed head, TB's, set & forget CL's,
At the track he had no logs, did no tweaks on gearing or AF.
In retrospect, it was a mistake to run C-44 without logging AF.
I run it without issues at AF=12.0:1, but have holed a piston @ 12.8-ish
It certainly makes the most hp, but needs a lot of fuel at high CR.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
posted August 05, 2010 06:48 AM
Shane, c44 is supposed to make more power. I shot the idea down a few times on sat and Sunday. later on Sunday after hearing a few more opinions on how it would be ok etc. and how its used on high comp engines in drag racing, I reluctantly agreed to try it.
I knew better and shouldn't have without proper testing etc. My bad, and I wont do that again.
I did get quite a bunch of valuable info on the dyno and at the track from this 1st build. So we are going to make some changes to the cams.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted August 03, 2010 04:05 AM
Edited By: 
LOL Yea imagine that.....
