KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 24, 2010 05:57 PM
AFR with big cams
I was talking with a guy about tuning my motor, and the main point of the conversation was AFR. Hes not a fan of the dynojet, and has a fair bit of experience with a superflow, wich according to him is very similar to the factory pro. He was saying that with my larger motor, 13.7:1 CR and big cams that I should be running richer than before(12.8:1). this seems to backed up by Karls and Jims 1427 builds(you guys run those around 12.2:1 correct?). He suggested trying 12.5:1 and then tweaking on the track for best mph(which may end up closer to 12 than 13) after i was sure all other variables were staying fairly constant. His reason for the extra fuel was mainly from the cams, which i found very interesting. more overlap ect, which means more air and fuel are actually going into the exhaust and not burning. so the motor would be showing 12:1 on the wide-band, but actually burning closer to 12.8:1. he was talking about the factory pro 5 gas analyzer ect to back up his claim.
he no longer works at the shop with the superflow(more money elsewhere) but I think Ill take a trip down and see what my bike will do. any comments or suggestions welcome!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted July 24, 2010 07:39 PM
well, hes got a point. overlap will correlate to an AFR change.. having those ( expensive and sexy) gas analyzers tho is alot different from grabbing O2-based AFR, as the gas analyzer operates on carbon emissions and.. well, i forgot. i talked face-to-face with leigh, one of Mr. Salvisberg's main guys when he was at summit point with an EC997.. so i got to know a good bit about their dynos and gas analyzers.. and i have talked to mark as well about alot of crap.
but anyway, ya.. you'll see a direct correlation within reason to AFR and cam numbers across the board. lift, duration.. especially overlap.
with the way these bikes comp fuel, you're not gonna see as much of a difference in fueling as you would if the bike ran a MAF sensor as opposed to a MAP sensor.. most MAF sensor based engines can comp +/- 20% for airflow changes.. other than an intake leak, the only other airflow change you'd see is if VE and airflow of the motor itself ( thru modified cam numbers) were changed.
the small details that make sense when you sit back and think about it! lol
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 25, 2010 05:46 AM
Scott,
i am mystified by yr post.
what are you trying to do???
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 25, 2010 06:49 AM
Karl, my logging stuff is having issues, and local authorities have given me my first and final warning as far as street tuning goes(Brock SW w/out baffle and 150 mph + didnt go over so well), so I want to get a custom map made for best power. theres a superflow dyno in NB, and a dynojet in NS. Im leaning heavily towards the superflow
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 25, 2010 06:59 AM
I wouldn't worry so much about the dyno type, as the operator. Any dyno is only as good as the tuner attached to it. 
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 25, 2010 07:19 AM
thats true, they have done a few big bore bikes, and i know of at least 2 turbos that have had good results, no horror stories like the dynojet guys ( a few melt downs)
something i found interesting was the fact the superflow has twin "turbo" fans that are supposed to replicate ram air fairly effectively to about 140 mph, so mapping should be a bit closer to real world
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted July 25, 2010 08:53 AM
thats the worst thing about a dyno is that it's a static test.. ram air is almost something that can't be replicated in a dyno cell.. air density and temp and al that changes quite a bit from the stagnant cell to the street. bernoulli's principle states ( mathematically) that you'll see roughly .7 PSI at 200mph.. actually duplicating the airflow to "fake" out the same result is a bitch.
i have heard alot of smack talk about the 250i as far as it being upwards of 15% optimistic.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 25, 2010 11:06 AM
the busa guys with the hacked ecu setups found the bit to turn off the ram air fueling when on a dyno. i wish it would be as easy for us underdogs..
shane i am guessing with time ridge can get that option for the zx14 also.
when running my bike on the dyno tuned lean on purpose so i can correct with my dobeck and a screwdriver at will with out flashing the afr at the end of the 1/4 was about .3 to .4 leaner with the extra air.
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Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 25, 2010 12:48 PM
quote:
I wouldn't worry so much about the dyno type, as the operator. Any dyno is only as good as the tuner attached to it.
oh yeah and don't forget there is also a lot in how you load it and air quality in the area you are dyno in
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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