entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 27, 2002 01:33 PM
quote:
quote:
ZHooligan,
all I can say about your post is:
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN !!!!!!!!!!
I will be driving from Texas to Pac NW this summer for the "2003 Entropy Family Vacation", and I would be happy if you'd let me buy you a beer!!!
Entropy,How far north are you going?Will I be able to buy a TFA member a beer also?
Cowboy,
when we take vacations, there is virtually no planning but we do get in the car with 3 things:
1. money
2. some camping stuff
3. a map covering a BIG area
So, making it into Canada is a good possibility. Fully leaded beer is a must for TFA members, eh? It would be a pleasure to make your acquaintance 
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted December 27, 2002 02:03 PM
Don't get too close to the campfire Cowboy... "mmmm...BBQ'd drag racer..." :P
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cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted December 27, 2002 02:44 PM
Thanks for the "heads-up"Dean
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted December 28, 2002 06:39 AM
come on now I drink lite beer, I just usally drink 2 to 1....
Mad Mike
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted December 28, 2002 09:37 AM
For you southerners with the real money you can drink 2 for one.lol
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 30, 2002 11:34 AM
ZH, I just carefully read your post and would like to disagree with just 2 items. Lee Hindle did post on Labusas and stated "6 to 8 Hp over their previous design which made about 12 HP", Pierre (Bear) also went on record and stated exactly what he thought, "3 to 7 HP more on the Dyno". do you disagree with this? I will post the links to the statements if necessary.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted December 30, 2002 11:54 AM
You obviously don';t get my post Vincent. Neither Lee or Pierre are regular members of the is board. Nor do they make them selves available for regular discussion. They both came on and post a post of one piece of information to push and sell their one product. Doug and Rob have posted over 350 times on this board. Providing technical information, their opinions, expertise and experience. We are talking apples and oranges here.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 30, 2002 01:40 PM
Maybe not on "This" Board!, but Pierre has posted 187 times and Hindle 10 times. and from what I read, it was usually to clear up some questions about their products. Since Pierre only got into bike parts for his own personal use and expanded because of Demand, and all of this happened in 2002, that is a lot of posts. The Step Tube has only been out for 7 months and Lee started posting in July. Rob Muzzy has only posted 21 times and Doug Meyer 345, so considering the "Time" difference, the Post rate per month is greater for Hindle and Pierre? I am not a "Spokes person for either, but I have both of their products and have certainly posted a "Lot" Of information that related to both of their Products.
I have sent out over 50 copies of my maps to people using Muzzy, Akrapovic and Hindle Pipes. When there was a Problem with the "0" Rings on the Bear Stacks, I personally sent everyone that had a problem another set at no expense to them including shipping. A current Board member stated that they were not receiving the Performance benefit that they thought they should receive and if the measurements are off, I will send them the stacks out of my bike. I have never refused information to anyone about anything and at my own personal expense helped others. (I have no where near the money any of these people do, but I have not let that stop me.
I know that this does not add up to much compared to Doug and Rob, but it should account for a little weight on Pierre and Hindle's side of the table. Right now, the Bikeland Banner is flying where? In South Africa. We are all friends here (I think) and want the best for our bikes. That is why I am here.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 30, 2002 02:43 PM
what he said
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted December 30, 2002 03:52 PM
Back to Cams!!! I am building my 1361 right now so I want to know about the cams.
Muzzys----- when, how much hp, how much $
Lees-------- " " " " " " "
Webs------- " " " " " " "
The only thing I can see is that Web has them for the 12R but what kind of gains. I dont want to pull the motor just to upgrade the cams when I have the motor out right now doing the 1361 kit. However I dont want to put a set of $600 cams in when I dont know what they are capable of.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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ZHooligan
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posted December 30, 2002 04:18 PM
The cam question is interesting. I have yet to see a single post or comment on the specific benefit or increase from the cams. It seems so far that there are several ways to get to 210 horsepower with the 1361.
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted December 30, 2002 05:40 PM
I just want someone to step up and say how much their cams are worth. I want to add a set if they make hp. You cant put cams in a ZX12 like you can other bikes due to the Monocoque frame. However I dont want to put a set in and not know if they are worth it as I am doing alot at once. Oh well it seems that is how it works out anyways huh!!! Somebody tell me they have cams worth 8hp on top and small loss in the low end and I'm in like Flint!!!
All Jokes aside it would be nice to know these answers. Berg do you know exactly how much the intake on exhaust side is worth? What is the price of the stock cam?
Thanks!!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 30, 2002 07:38 PM
"CAMS", I have looked at the specsand the statement Lose a Little more on the bottom will be exactly what any changes will cause.
Web Cam makes excellent cams, provided you can tell them or show them what you want. Muzzy on the "Originator" with his cams and that is a Lot of "Original" Thinking being used.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 30, 2002 11:10 PM
 Edited By: RAC4IT on 30 Dec 2002 23:27
quote:
I just want someone to step up and say how much their cams are worth. Berg do you know exactly how much the intake on exhaust side is worth? What is the price of the stock cam?
Sorry couldn't tell you exactly what any of them are worth because nobody that I know of has done any before/after testing on the dyno. Most people do cams when their motor is apart so it's difficult to judge exactly what it's worth. I've heard people say 5hp here or 10hp there but it's all speculation until we see an actual comparison.
Lee's Performance will quote that their "aftermarket" cams are worth 8hp vs stock cams in a built motor. But on the same note that is if they are installed and degreed to his specs which he's not going to give you over the phone however if you buy them from him then I'm sure he will share the information. As far as I know Lee is the only person I know quoting an exact number. Everyone else is afraid to give an exact number. There are some guys that participate on this board that have purchased Lee's cams maybe they will share information not yet publicized?
Sorry I have no information on Muzzys cams or Web cams.
As you already know; on my bike I had Lee install an OEM intake cam on the exhaust because it's slightly higher lift and was inexpensive (comparitively speaking). I did not have the extra $800 to do the big cams when my motor was apart and I didn't see a need to extract every single last horsepower out of it after all it's a streetbike not a racebike and that's what I told Lee I wanted at the time. Of course I had no idea how much racing I would do in 2002 at that time either. Now if I had said "Lee build me a bad ass race motor" (which BTW he quoted 225rwhp) that's big motor big cams high compression tuned on nutec; then that would be different all together. He wont advertise it but I know Lee's built ZX12Rs with those numbers and that was before the 1320cc big block kits were available so who knows what he could do with parts that are available now.
Cost? I went back and looked up my invoice but there's nothing on it specific to cams however if I recall it was around $200 for the single replacement OEM cam. This may or may not be what they normally charge. He gave me special pricing because of my plans to run speed trials at ECTA/Maxton (which is where I originally met Lee back in 2000 and we talked about building my motor).
My problem is that I have way too many projects going on at once as I'm sure many of you guys do as well, so I have to spread what I can spend around and it doesn't always end up exactly the way I want all the time however I have been very happy with the results and goals I've accomplished on my ZX12R especially for the way I have it setup.
When it all comes down to it 5, 10 or even 15 hp isn't going to make or break it unless you're comparing dyno charts! It's really about practice makes perfect! Rider ability is going to be the number one factor; soething I've learned from experienced racers like Jason Miller and Ryan Schnitz which has helped me curb desires to add more horsepower and just concentrate on translating what I already have into ET and MPH.
If you have the money and plan to do a complete race build up then go for it. But if you are on a budget like me then my advice is save that $800 cams money and spend it on track time; it's money better spent. If you want more power later you can always "Jet UP!!" 
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lonniemac
Expert Class
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posted December 30, 2002 11:26 PM
web cams
i am running web cams right now the only real world test that i have is that i gained .1 in the 8th mile i don't have the #s of the cams in front of me know but i will post later. i degreed the cams at the same time as installation so whether the .1 came from cams or degreing i will never know but any engine builder will tell you more lift more flow duration varies upon setup these were considered dropin cams ,there was no other work done. web also has another grind that would require valve work.these are more ratical for all out drag racing. they will have to weld and grind your cams. i have a set of stock cams with just a few 100 miles for spare cams web knows cams just ask what the fastest guys in the world use.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 30, 2002 11:31 PM
In my experience ET is difficult to make a judgement call on performance; better to compare trapspeed to make a call on what you really picked up with the cams. What increase in MPH did you see at the track? I believe Web cams has a great reputation too!
Maybe the next guy who buys those cams will do a before and after test? Put your motor together with stock cams, tune it, race it, then install the aftermarket cams for comparison? That's a lot of work but the shared information would be greatly appreciated by many.
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zrxdean
Needs a job
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posted December 31, 2002 12:06 AM
I have seen and heard of motors gaining little or nothing (or losing power) going to bigger cams. I'm told you need lots of compression to take advantage. Maybe Lee Shierts has before / after dyno charts?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 31, 2002 07:08 AM
giving free advice about oil/tire recs, clutch care, V-1 mounting, or where to get the latest, snazziest CF thinga-ma-bob is one thing.
giving free advice about specific cam set ups is VERY different. Not only did Lee (for example) come by his knowledge at no small effort/cost, but the application & set up where the cams are used have a huge impact on gains.
I also would like to see a comprehensive comparison of aftermarket cams and their associated hp curves according to application, but the chances of that ever being avail is pretty close to zero, eh?
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VincentHill
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posted December 31, 2002 01:51 PM
I remember some free advice that none of us knew anything about or even had thought about it? Upping the fuel Pressure by crimping the tube where the srping is. It came from Pierre.
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lonniemac
Expert Class
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posted January 01, 2003 12:28 PM
web-cams
yes we are all correct i did gain 2 mph in the 8th but remember i am track oriented you know the lower mph usually show better et but these cams gave consistant times and et . wonder why muzzy is doing stacks now wonder why muzzy,s doing cams now . lee pionered camshafts for the 12 first i talked with muzzy 2yrs ago about cams and you would not believe the responses. dont take this wrong i love muzzy they do alot for kawasaki but when they did not know about cams lee already had them even when it comes to using 2 of the same cams (stock)but remember lee dosnt weld and grind cams. there are only a handfull of comp that will configer cams
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted January 08, 2003 12:14 PM
Guys, remember this, these company's are being faithful to a particular brand. It's about money. If no one is making parts for a popular bike, someone will. If there's an opportunity to sell you something someone will.
Cams, If I had a specific grind that I know is working, why wouldn't I post some numbers to help sell my product. When I look at gains, I am looking at the % of gain, not the number itself. I purchased a muzzy pipe when I bought my bike. I know from past muzzy pipes, I would gain around 10 hp.
A bird in the hand is better then 2 in a bush.....
If you can't or won't tell me a ball park figure that can be checked, keep your product.
I remember talking with the muzzy crew about cams when the bike came out and their words were, the stock cams are larger enough. So, demand drives products. I don't blame muzzy's, but don't sell me a line of bs, because you haven't developed/released yours yet.
Kawi's will never get the parts that the busa has. For the most part, the 12 is running faster with smaller mods. If you compare the numbers of the piston kits for the busa, the cc's are pretty close. Our 1270 2.4 mm overbore is equal to their 1397 kit. So, don't get worried by the number. Kawi says the 12 is a 1198 cc motor, but it's displacement it larger then the busa 1299. The 12 makes more hp stock, but lacks the tq of the busa. It has always taken cash to make a sukzi run faster then a stock ninja. Do the comparo of the zx11 and 1100 gsxr(qtr times). To me, I am not going to spend $350.00 on a stock intake cam to gain 3 to 5 hp. I will purchase a nos jet for $4.00 and gain about 6 hp. Hp's are Hp aspirated or injected. Surely everyone knows that stock motors last longer then built ones.
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted January 08, 2003 12:44 PM
cams
everyone knows that built motors that are normaly asp last longer than one on steroids, period. tell the pros that spend millions on developement and testing that cams dont work and see dont they laugh. more lift give more cfm same as port work does porting work.
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted January 08, 2003 01:16 PM
I disagree, their built motors that they are racing are torn apart and check rountinely. As long as the rider isn't trying to continuely exceed his best time and become satisfied with running a specific number, the stock motor on dope will last just as long as a built motor. As to your question about cfm's cams work best with a system. head porting/cams/piston. There isn't a large gain doing either seperately. You ask the pros that? lastely more lift doesn't mean for cfm's If you increase the cams and don't port the head is't only going to increase the cfms a minuet portion. increase the port size increase the lift and increase the compression then you will see a good gain. for the record: port more air/fuel, lift allows for to be suck into the camber via the higher comrpession.
Schools out
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted January 08, 2003 05:12 PM
cams
if you are on the street fine, if you are on the track . show me consistency in dope on streetbikes i have beat doped streetbikes plenty with 1270 & cams no headwork big throttlebodies bear stacks and very good rider 5.9 allday everyday 5" arm 8th mile 5.8 on nutec. this is a mile build but just as dependable as a stock motor dont get me wrong i know nitros work but for consistant times on a streetbike you may as well be playing a slot machine for one time race with someone beside you comparable you better hit jackpot or you be spinning , flyin, or something you will winn sometime but you will loose alot against a comp opp. who is consistant, and know what he is running. all these electronic devices out there will help but you know how nitrous is . if its cold like it is nitrous acts up motor speeds up yes you are right about the cams and incriments but i would hope that before anyone considered cams they would have done a lot of other things first.
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted January 08, 2003 05:17 PM
cams
also compression can be changed with or without other work and see gains or losses based on what you do fuel you run is also a factor with comp.
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