KZScott
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posted June 05, 2010 06:54 AM
dry sump oil systems
so my basic understanding of these is that they use the factory oil pump as a pressure pump so the stock oiling system remains pretty much unchanged. the main advantage is not worrying about unporting the pickup ect ect and getting a super low pro oil pan. most of the kits I see use a billet pan, and a large scavange pump thats run off of the water pump drive (requiring the use of an electric water pump.)
if someone wanted to make their own dry sump system without all the fancy billet ($$$) parts, could an electric scavange pump be used instead? (leaving the water pump ect as is) I know there are pumps to pull the oil from a turbo, but Im not sure if there would be a suitable (obviously larger) pump available.
Im just getting ideas together for down the road 
please discuss
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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dougmeyer
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posted June 05, 2010 11:55 AM
No.
This is one place where there has been a tremendous amount of testing and R&D done to get a reliable system.
Any workable system on our bikes uses proven racing pump components and system engineering the same as found
any top level race vehicle. Anything less will cost you broken parts and a lot of time and work until you're broke or you end up with the stuff you should have bought in the first place. Please trust me on this.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted June 05, 2010 01:51 PM
what type of mechanical scavange pump is used Doug?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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posted June 05, 2010 03:35 PM
so far Ive only found 2 brands that make a kit for the 12. Pace and Muzzy
the Muzzy:
This oil sump converts your ZX-12 engine to a dry sump design, utilizing the existing oil pump as a pressure pump only. A scavenge pump is mounted to the stock water pump drive pad and oil is now pumped from the engine and stored in an external tank (not supplied) rather than in the oil pan itself. This requires the use of an electric water pump on a liquid cooled engine. The advantage of this system is primarily oil control to the pump pickup as well as increased vacuum in the engine and reduced oil “windage”. Since the stock pressure pump now receives its’ supply of oil directly from the tank it is not subject to un-porting due to low levels or “g” loads. This ensures an uninterrupted flow of oil to the engine and virtually eliminates the possibility of bearing failure due to oil starvation.
Depending on the size of the tank used, oil capacity is increased as well. The oil is less subject to aeration and the additional capacity lowers oil temperature. In addition the depth of the pan is reduced by 2.5” allowing the engine to be mounted lower in the chassis.
An example of a commercially available tank would be the Moon MP5000-3 1.7 Gal. tank which is 6.5” dia. and 16” high.
Pace
I dont really see a need to replace the perfectly fine oem pressure pump and relief valve, so I would be interested in either the Muzzy or Stage 1 Pace kit design.
making the oil pan doesnt seem that hard, neither does finding a proper sized tank and lines so its finding the scavange pump that will bolt up would be the kicker. hence my original idea for an electric pump.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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posted June 06, 2010 11:21 AM
I was looking at the dry sump options NLR has for the busa, they use a roots style scavange pump made by Daily Engineering. What does the Muzzy kit use Doug?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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posted June 06, 2010 12:24 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 6 Jun 2010 20:26
I believe it's a Barnes or a Peterson. But you could use a Weaver, Daily, a Peterson, Barnes, or I'm sure others. Keep in mind that nobody makes a pump "for a ZX-12". These pumps are modular and generally kitted and fitted for race cars. They are plentiful and common, but not inexpensive. All the good ones are, by necessity, positive displacement gear pumps or rotor pumps. That is the only type pf pump that can develop the suction necessary to scavenge the sump dry or other areas. An electric pump cannot do that job. The pressure pump is a no brainer, it's the scavenge stages and sump pickups that require the R&D and a lot of it to get a system that works correctly.
What a company like Muzzys does is do the research, select the right off the shelf components, make the parts that don't exist like the mount plates and sump, test it, package all the plumbing, etc. All that is well worth the price asked. The commonly available pump components are very similar, just pick the kit you like and buy it. That method will definitely be cheaper than trying to design and build your own.
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Shane661
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posted June 06, 2010 12:27 PM
I'm stupid about all of this...what are the benefits of a dry sump system?
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KZScott
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posted June 06, 2010 02:48 PM
thanks for your input Doug. I think i could make the sump from a stock pan tho. the tricky part like you say is getting the parts that dont exist off the shelf like what Muzzy and Pace have created (mainly the adaptor to fit the pumps to the water pump drive pad) . Neither kit really seem to fit what I think I need however. Im basing this off of what Seb at NLR has developed for his pro street bikes. 2, 3 and 4 stage kits:
This 4 stage system uses 3 larger sections and 1 standard section. 3 sections to the pan and 1 to the turbo.
With this pump a Hayabusa engine will pull 11 inches at idle while maintaining a negative until about middle of 6th gear on high boost race applications.
my guess would be that 3 to the sump and an electric pump to the turbo would be the best of everything?
Shane, mainly to get way low, and never worry about toasting the bearings from oil starvation, even if you are cutting 1.teen 60s or lower
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted June 06, 2010 05:10 PM
Scott,
If you can just make one just like the Muzz, NLR or Pace, no worries. Just make one of those.
Question though, what about what you're planning makes any of these kits unsuitable? By the way, all the parts of each of those kits are not shown in the photos.
Also, an electric pump scavenging the turbo works just fine. The flow is very low and not very much vacuum is required. That eliminates a stage on the scavenge pump, costs less power to drive and $ to buy. That is what I have on my turbo.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted June 06, 2010 05:48 PM
I dont intend to come off as cocky, but I do think I can make something out of a cut off stock pan, some 1/8 plate, weld on fittings, tubing ect, instead of getting a billet sump. Im sure you have talked plenty of incapable (but confident they were capable) guys out of stuff like this and saved them time and money, but I like these sorts of learning curves.
the Muzzy and Pace only use 2 pumps to scavenge, as far as I can tell Seb has found it beneficial to use 3. it looks like its mainly a vacuum pump on the third. Im not sure why he uses a 4th to pull oil from the turbo, when it seems electric is fine?
If i could add a third pump to the Muzzy kit, that would be ideal, unless of course the 2 pumps Muzzy uses are superior to the Dailey pumps and already pull 11 inches at idle while maintaining a negative until about middle of 6th gear on high boost race applications
have you logged crank case pressure on your turbo Doug? Ive heard of guys making quite a bit more power with a vacuum pump, so when I go to a dry sump, i want to get a system that will also be a very effective vacuum pump
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
osti33
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posted June 06, 2010 06:29 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 7 Jun 2010 02:41
Scott,
Why go to all the trouble of making a homemade oil pan when you can buy the billet one for 3-400 bucks? Unless you have a shorter relief valve, etc. You won't have as much ground clearance as the billet pan anyway. You yourself said your main goal is to get the bike way low. I have a hard time believing your fabbed/stock pan will be as short as the 1/2" thick billet pan.
You will have to buy all the materials, plus your time to mock it up and weld it has to be worth something. Then if your homemade pan doesn't work as well as the billet and you spin a bearing...Well you just hurt a 5000+ dollar motor. All to save what? A couple hundred bucks?
I hope you have great results with your build but I would buy the billet pan and be done with it. 
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KZScott
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posted June 06, 2010 06:49 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 7 Jun 2010 02:51
we dont get a 1/2 in pan Ryan  (only the busa) , the Muzzy pan is stated as being 2.5 in shorter than stock. stock is about 5.25 so 2 3/4. unless its worded wrong and its really 2.5 in thick. I wish it was 1/2 in, then I would probably be sold on it. Im not sure how the Pace compares, but it doesnt look much shallower if any. neither mention a shorter relief valve, but that really doesnt mean they dont use one. I dont see why the stock valve couldnt be indexed sideways or moved?
Im not planning on doing this any time soon, I just want to learn more about this. I have a modified stock pan thats similar to a Coby Adams pan for now. I have no reason to go lower as my Brock SW is pretty much even with the pan. I will eventually be hanging a gt35r there instead
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
osti33
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posted June 06, 2010 06:53 PM
Got it. I thought the pan for the 12 was a 1/2" pan as well. My mistake. Even so, I still would probably go the Muzzy or Pace route. That's just me.
Like I said before. I hope you have great results. Good luck with it. Don't see a bunch of turbo 12's running around. That's for sure.
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dougmeyer
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posted June 06, 2010 08:10 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 7 Jun 2010 04:12
Scott,
You can't make a proper sump "out of a stock pan". It's just not the right shape, doesn't have sufficient thickness for the bosses to accept the plumbing. You have to have room for the pickups and plumbing. The pickups have to have sufficient area so the screens don't impede the oil flow. You need a minimum of -10 hoses and their fittings to accomplish this. You'll find that the fittings and plumbing sort of "drive" the design. Dry sump pickups do not simply suck oil like a wet sump pickup. They suck an air/oil froth. They need some area to do that. Take a look at the Muzzy pan in photo above. That plate with the square cutouts mounts vertically across the back of the pan (upper right in the photo) This is the forward facing face of the pickup "box". The top of the pickup is the perforated plate in the lower center of the photo. The two pump segments each pull oil from one side of the "box" (see splitter in the center). Do you see how many square inches of pickup area there are? The total area is critical to getting all the oil picked up and out. Also, you can't simply say "more segments are better" it depends on the width and design of the pump gears. The lobe type ("roots") pull a higher vacuum, but are more expensive and vulnerable to damage.
On the Pace sump (which I have never seen) I will guess that the bottom of that tube across the back is cut away to provide a long slot for pickup. Also it looks like it's a car application because of the second pickup in the front to get oil out during braking.
As I've said before in other posts, on the several engine design projects I've worked on, getting the dry sump oil system took an unbelievable amount of effort and testing to perfect. If ever there was an area that is "not as simple as it seems", it's the art of oil systems.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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rtbain
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posted June 07, 2010 03:58 AM
quote:
I'm stupid about all of this...what are the benefits of a dry sump system?
+1
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Randy
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dougmeyer
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posted June 07, 2010 05:52 PM
A dry sump moves the oil from the sump (oil pan) below the engine to a remote tank. The associated oil pumping system now does two things.The (multiple) scavenge pumps suck the oil from the sump and move it into the tank, thereby keeping the sump "dry", and the oil pressure pump now only needs to take the uninterrupted supply of oil from the tank and pump it into the engine.
There are multiple advantages to this setup. Most importantly, the supply to the pressure pump is always constant since the supply to the pump is at the bottom of a tank that may hold far more than a wet sump design, maybe 30 to 50% more. This tank also keeps the oil cooler and removes a lot of air (foam) from the supply. Since acceleration loads, in any direction, do not effect the tank in a way that may unport the supply you will not ever starve the engine for oil and damage bearings. The sump is constantly being evacuated with high capacity suction pumps which reduces windage (oil drag) and pull a helpful vacuum in the crank case.
Lateral G loads are not that significant on a motorcycle, since the as the bike leans the g load is always 90 deg to the crank, but fore and aft g loads (especially on a drag bike) are very significant and a dry sump prevents the pressure pump from sucking air under acceleration. Finally, as with any race vehicle, ground clearance is always an issue and the shallower sump that does not have to hold the oil supply allows for minimum ground clearance.Virtually any serious race vehicle is a dry sump design.
There's more, but that's the basic deal.
____________
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ZRXDean
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posted June 07, 2010 07:26 PM
I ran a Muzzy dry sump pan on my old ZRX, and it was a huge advantage in drag racing. What I can add to this discussion is that the design of the reservoir tank is nearly as important as the design of the pan. I went through a series of tank adjustments (read: rod bearings) until I figured out the capacity, shape, inlet / outlet location & angle, and baffling I needed. If I had bought an aftermarket tank the first time, I probably would have saved a lot of headache. But think of all I've learned!
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rtbain
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posted June 08, 2010 12:52 AM
Thanks Doug. I heard somewhere that a dry sump will also aid in crankcase pumpdwon. Never really understood how a dry sump would do that. I would think you would have to use some sort of reed valve on the breather to get effective pump down.
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Randy
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KZScott
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posted June 08, 2010 02:31 PM
Thank you for the detailed post Doug, Ill put dry sump on the buy list instead of the make list. I realise now Im in over my head.
I guess ill be getting a Muzzy dry sump some day
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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posted June 08, 2010 07:12 PM
Whew, that was a close one.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted June 09, 2010 12:44 PM
While I have your attention Doug, what do you think of this oil pan?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
lowflyer
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posted June 09, 2010 02:10 PM
Hey Scott, Not to threadjack, but let me know if you want to talk about a turbo kit for your 12! My bike is for sale and I may part it. Has a Mr. Turbo kit currently installed.
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KZScott
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posted June 10, 2010 05:21 PM
When I do a turbo setup, it will be completely custom. liquid to air intercooler, stand alone, ect ect. prostreet build well over 500hp
Im just about at the limit for this yrs budget, but I do appreciate the offer. Im doing a 3x4 with a special head and big cams. way different chassis setup, and Im upgrading a few things on my wet kit. should put down some decent numbers
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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posted June 11, 2010 02:10 PM
Scott re: your pan. I can't figure it out from the pics. I'm missing something.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted June 11, 2010 03:46 PM
Mine beside a pan modified by Coby Adams
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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