kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 04:33 AM
ZX12's spitting shims/ dropping valves and spun bearings??
Latley on this board and others, I've notice there has been allot of ZX12 owners dropping exhaust valves spitting shims and spun rod bearings!? Most of these are NOS fed bikes? What is going on here? How much NOS is safe to use without an issues of spitting shims etc.? I've got a dry nos kit from Schnitz Racing that I finished installing on the 12 but, after reading post about 12's spitting shims out, makes me want to take off the nos kit and just run all motor. Sounds like to me I will have to take the head back off and have heavy duty valve springs installed. I only wish I have found this out earlier in the year when I had the engine apart that this is a potential problem. I would have installed the heavy duty valve springs.
I still don't understand if you have a shim under the bucket, how in the hell is the shim is being spit out? I personally think that the 12 is already hyped up from the factory in stock form. Start adding pistons, NOS and what you have is a time bomb such is this post. Already, I have had to address the clutch basket with an aftermarket basket and now sounds like the head will the next issue to deal with if you use NOS. Again, How much NOS are you guys spraying?
  
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TurboBlew
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posted December 13, 2002 04:49 AM
Ken, its not uncommon for ANY high performance engine to fail. Ive seen 2 Busas spin bearings with stock motors and no spray. Obviously there is a limit on how far you can push a motor. Assembly line tolerances arent always best for HP! 
The basket is definitely a weak point on the 12, but a billet basket actually improves performance. The starter gear is weak on the Busas.
I think its tough to generalize ALL bikes due to a small percentage of failures. You dont know what was done to each motor or what kind of setup was running.
Ive seen YCIS' bike on spray for a long time now. Its been held wide open numerous times with nary a problem...except maybe a tad rich on the mixture. Stock motor with a 40 shot seems to be the recipe for good power and long motor life.
If you're worried, I would go through the top end and make sure your valves are in spec.
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kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 04:53 AM
I believe that some of the 12's were either kitted and or stock motored. I'm thinking that some of these guys are spraying allot of NOS in their bikes which is causing these failures.
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kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 04:58 AM
Turboblew, I've been through the topend on the 12. I just didn't install heavy duty valve springs at the time when i had it apart cause I was told at the time it wasn't necessary when spraying a 40hp dry kit?
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MadMike
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posted December 13, 2002 04:59 AM
and one thing Ken if a little NOS get's above the valve and ignites poping the valve away from the surface of the cam, the shim can be spit...I think it is more likely that they are spitting the keepers out and dropping the valve. but I dont know...
MM
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kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 05:02 AM
Scary!!!!
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted December 13, 2002 06:54 AM
Im up to bottle refill # 60 or so at this point with no issues.
Started with a #20 jet...now im up to a #46 jet
Only issue sofar has been pitiful gas mileage 
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
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posted December 13, 2002 07:26 AM
Using a Schnitz dry #34 jet, got me to 8.80s @ 161 no problems so far using pump gas and -2 degrees timing pulled with the PC3R map, also added fuel ramped up from 18s to 35s in the map. I had Lee's put the heavy duty springs on last year, my bike does NOT pop on shifts but I am footshifting not using an air-shifter or ignition kill box. Maybe the HD springs have helped me, but I think the problem is with the airshifter ignition kill that stops the combustion process and loads up during delay, causing the pop and obviously it's overwhelming the stock springs and the piston is contacting valves on these nitrous motors.
I see guys getting greedy with nitrous, they are looking for a damaged motor instead of learning to use what they already have in the bike power-wise and maximizing the gain potential of the smaller pills or utilizing the kit to the fullest extent before stepping up to more spray... guys spraying three times more than me wet or dry and either breaking or running "on the edge" yet making the same ETs with just maybe slightly more mph, but it's not worth the risk. I'll keep my bike a streetbike and ride it home when I'm done racing. Screw tearing into a motor twice or three times a year!
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kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 08:53 AM
Rac41t... why did you opted for heavy duty springs when your bike was at Lee's? From the sounds of it , I was mis-informed? Schnitz Racing said the only thing I had to do was pull some timing out the PC and richen the mid and highs on the PC buttons and thats it?
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
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posted December 13, 2002 09:52 AM
Lee talked me into the HD springs when they did the headwork. Initially I was going to do aftermarket cams but costs were already too high for me at the time so I just had him prep the head with the HD springs just in case later on I decided to do the big cams, the decision had nothing to do with nitrous, didn't have it or plan on using it at the time.
Ryan says you can spray stock motors all day long dry as long as you dont go beyond the 36 jet included with the kit, I believe him. YCIS has had good results, no problems.
I think airshifters with ignition kills have a lot to do with the problems being reported using nitrous... JMHO of course..
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted December 13, 2002 10:05 AM
I hear busas pop all day long with airshifters at the track...and none of them run spray.
Kinda made me leery about putting an A/S on the bike with the spray...even moreso now with this debate.
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kcadby
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posted December 13, 2002 10:17 AM
quote:
I think airshifters with ignition kills have a lot to do with the problems being reported using nitrous... JMHO of course..
I agree...
ZRXDean spit a shim on his ZRX once...it was on the shift...
It's common to run a relay on the NOS to kill the NOS while shifting but...it won't do any good with the dry-shot...
Jusy don't over do it and you should be fine...
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted December 13, 2002 10:49 AM
I just dont see how the nitrous kill could ever be effective.
The kill delay for an airshifter is like in milliseconds right? even if you shut off the solenoid for that long...the airbox is still going to be full of nitrous during the time the ignition is killed.
Its kinda like running your hand quickly under an open showerhead on full blast...sure there is a tiny gap in the stream of water...but you are still getting plenty wet.
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cowboy
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posted December 13, 2002 11:18 AM
I ran a 2 stage(34 in each stage) all season with a totally stock motor(inline resistor mod),even plugs,no pc3,stock timing,block off plates and Hindle step pipe.I spit a shim on a exhaust valve and one of the keepers was also dislodged and i don't understand why the valve never dropped but it was close!!The only reason this happened to me was because of numerous misshifts at the top end with the air shifter.On my 8.95@162mph pass the shifter missed from 4th-5th but i just nicked the limiter before hitting the button again.When we got back to the pits everything sounded fine and we put the bike in the trailer(last run on Sat).Sun. morning start the bike,ride to the line,and the bike is making a ticking sound.Went back to the pits and we tare the body work off to try and determine where the sound is coming from.We hope its just a exhaust leak(we new it was more serious than that BUT)and figure what the heck its not that loud.lol.Well we ran a 8.99@156mph and when i pulled off the track i walked back to get the trailler.I don't know how but no damage,bike was still running but was now ticking real bad.knock on wood for next season.Only change we're doing is a race prepped tranny so the thing will shift,a shock,and a mtc lockup.8S EVERY RUN BABE!!anyone have any info on aftermarket(ohlis oe penske)shocks???
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kzz1
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posted December 13, 2002 06:39 PM
So... If I'm understanding correctly, It doesn't matter if the bike is kitted or not, Its the air shifter's ignition kill that causing to long of a kill to utilize a NOS system to work properly as opposed to foot shifting.
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TurboBlew
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posted December 13, 2002 08:51 PM
Makes a good argument for the "electric" shifters available.
Only armed when you shift. Not as effective as an airshifter, but still quicker than foot shifting alone.
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cowboy
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posted December 13, 2002 11:25 PM
MY ONLY PROBLEM WAS BECAUSE OF MISSHIFTS AND HITTING THE LIMITER.
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kzz1
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posted December 14, 2002 06:30 AM
Anyone running an electric shifter with NOS having any problems?
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cowboy
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posted December 14, 2002 10:50 AM
What would be the difference with a electric shifter???Still need a kill box.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
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posted December 14, 2002 11:30 AM
yep it's not the air it's the ignition kill that is the problem
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kcadby
Pro
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posted December 14, 2002 11:47 AM
quote:
I just dont see how the nitrous kill could ever be effective.
The kill delay for an airshifter is like in milliseconds right? even if you shut off the solenoid for that long...the airbox is still going to be full of nitrous during the time the ignition is killed.
That's why I said it won't help with the Dry Shot 
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kzz1
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posted December 14, 2002 04:10 PM
Ok then.. off comes the NOS! I'll put it on the Busa!
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted December 14, 2002 05:57 PM
Dont see how it could make a difference on a wet kit either
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VincentHill
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posted December 14, 2002 07:23 PM
This is the best thread I have read for a while! I like the idea of the Nitrous getting above the valve and The idea of the Keepers coming out make more sense than the Shims! Looks like Foot shifting for me!! THANKS Kzz1!
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kzz1
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posted December 14, 2002 09:04 PM
No problem VincentHill!!!
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