ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 20, 2010 08:26 PM
measuring squish on assembled motor
Hey folks,according to the Kawasaki Race Manual for the ZX10, the best squish (and minimum squish) is .65mm, or .026". I have a NA motor that is assembled and running that is at .025-.026". I haven't ridden the bike yet, or put it on a dyno, just idling and small throttle blips to check for leaks, noises. I find these motors make a lot of top end noise, so it's hard to say for sure, but it sounds normal.
But I'm worried that once it's run near redline, I'm going to have issues. Before I pull the head and install a slightly thicker head gasket, I'd like to check the squish again. Has anyone ever run a length of solder into the spark plug hole and gotten a reliable reading? Any other tricks out there? thanks, Dean
  
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NOX
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PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
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posted April 20, 2010 09:08 PM
Sounds doable........
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 20, 2010 09:53 PM
I've tried to do the solder down the spark plug hole thing, but it's hard to make that turn, even with the piston at BDC. That, and you need to do both the exhaust and the intake at the same time to minimize piston rock. Keeping everything clocked and positioned is very difficult, and I just gave up. If you go forward with it, just be sure you remove the cams so the valves don't walk off with your solder!
FWIW, I've never had much luck with squish less than .70mm in a liter bike motor. I think even the factory teams started to loosen up the spec from .68mm to .70mm despite what the kit manuals said. However, my motors are used for roadracing, not LSR or drag racing, and the possibility of an overly aggressive downshift that causes the motor to overrev is much greater in roadracing.
What redline and compression ratio are you running, and what rods/pistons are you using?
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 21, 2010 07:45 AM
Thanks Tim, I think I'll just tear it down and give myself an extra .004". I don't want to hurt this über zulu CompCNC head  Don't know about shift point yet, but I'm guessing around 12500. Stock rods, shelf Wiseco pistons.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 21, 2010 07:56 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 21 Apr 2010 15:58
I "Used" to use Very soft Solder back in the days od the 2 valve heads with strong large valves. When I tried on the ZX12 I bent a Valve. Now I use Soft modeling clay and a Head gasket that has no coating on it to get stuck! You live and you learn!
I never thougth about Piston rock, but since I was measuring the intake and exhaust valve at the same time. I was just "Stupid" lucky!
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 21, 2010 05:24 PM
Hey Dean.......
What's up with a n/a 10????
Inquiring minds want to know.
Dan
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 21, 2010 05:51 PM
i know on a car the typical head gasket will compress over time from new. a friend of mine had his stroked 340 have enough clearence and then about 5 months later he was hitting the head and bent a rod. i would go a tad larger than the minimum if i was setting my 12 up. may not be the best for every last horsepower but safe works for me instead of the expencive hp. i am intrested what my piston to head will be on my 440 with angle milled heads and 49.5cc closed chambered heads on a bigblock.
this is good though cause a friend of mine will be assembling his cycle engine soon and i imagin mike and i will be helping.
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 21, 2010 07:30 PM
Thanks folks, I feel better taking it apart when I know it's for a good reason. When it went together I was thinking that I would take it to Miami, and didn't have time to wait for a new gasket.
Dan there's not much to say yet, no testing yet, but I hope to bring it to Maxton in June and see what it will do, if the turbo runs well in May. Stock chassis and no tuning, so it won't run with Chad's bike or the ZX10 Sal built, but I'll have some fun. It's got one of Jim's heads, 2 race intake cams, Wiseco 13.5:1 pistons, and a Hindle dual canister race pipe and PC3.
This was the street ZX10 I bought and fixed up. I was never happy with it as a street commuter, and sold the frame and motor to buy a XR650R. Love it. Then I found a cheap no title frame, and built this motor to make a race bike.
Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you have it
Dean
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 22, 2010 09:03 AM
Great info Dean, that's why I was asking. I didn't know you were building another 10, I'm sure it will be a runner.
Dual-sports are a ton of fun, we'll never be without one.
See ya next month & thanks for the reply.
Dan
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted April 22, 2010 10:29 AM
I'd bet you have a tad more than 13.5:1, curious if you ever put a compression gauge on it to see what you have. Maybe a before and after, and you might be able to roughly calculate for every .001" in the hole will drop compression by said amount. Maybe good info for future builds and/or if you ever need to have your block skimmed.
Did you con the wifey into letting you keep the N/A bike by saying it was for her to ride. ; ) ; )
LOL.
I think I have tried that a few times, but I am getting old now and my wifey is much wiser!
Hope to see you running fast soon Dean, stay safe and ride hard.
Gary
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 22, 2010 10:47 AM
i LOVE the thought of Dean running turbo & NA; probably real cheap to have 2 Zx10's, share a buncha parts save a buncha money!!!!
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 22, 2010 11:29 AM
Edited By: ZRXDean on 22 Apr 2010 19:30
Exactly! Why have one when you can have 2 at twice the price???
Thanks guys, I'm excited to run a NA bike again. I also have been putting together a few nitrous parts...
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted April 22, 2010 12:08 PM
Great info! I've got a 10 top end apart that's waiting on a Compcnc head also. I can't remember what I set the squish at last time but I thought I was cutting it close. No signs of it touching when I tore it apart this time. Guess I need to measure it. I've got 4 head gaskets to choose from when I reassemble it. Owner wants it as tight as I dare. What cam numbers you running, Dean? This one has one race intake cam and is getting a custom exhaust cam this time.
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 22, 2010 01:32 PM
Hey Ken, long time. The cams are set at 109/110 right now, where I could get a minimum PTV clearance. I'll probably leave them with the thicker head gasket.
You should check out to the Texas Mile mang!
Dean
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted April 24, 2010 04:28 PM
Those are top end cam timing numbers. Not really good for the quarter mile !!!
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 24, 2010 06:13 PM
Yup, no need for 60 foots when you have a mile.
Swapped out the gasket last night / today, all buttoned up and ready to go. The paint is rattle can half-ass, and isn't even close to matching, but it's better than white I guess. From 100 yards it looks OK.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 24, 2010 10:11 PM
Dean, that was pretty darn quick.
what was the quench when you checked it?
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 25, 2010 04:00 AM
Dean how do you like that front wheel chock?
I'm looking to buy one for the trailer. I've been looking at the one you have there and also the aluminum frame Condor 6400.
On the squish thing... the tighter the better. How tight is too tight is a question of all the clearances in the engine plus the expansion of parts at temp then add what actual clearance you want.
There was a thread a year or two ago where I went into the semi complicated procedure for setting up the squish from scratch and calculating everything exactly. Short of doing it that way clay or using a tool to compress the spring and measure will get you close enough for most people as long as you aren't setting the engine on kill with all the minimums.
The bike looks good. Are those Catalyst body panels?
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CompetitionCNC.com
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted April 25, 2010 04:45 AM
Karl the gasket swap went quickly because I didn't measure anything. I spent a long time checking everything the first time it went together, and all I did was add .004 to the gasket thickness. So squish is now about .029-.030".
Jim I like the Baxley chock a lot. I used to work on the ZRX with just a rear stand, and this is a 1000 times better. I haven't used a Condor, but I hear people say the same thing. I like the clamping action of the Baxley, seems like it has a tighter grip on the wheel than the Condor. I paid $150 on eBay.
The bodywork is another eBay find, $150 delivered for never-mounted Hotbodies fiberglass, complete with tail and front fender. The fit was fine, not perfect, but the holes all lined up. There are some small cracks, but as you can see from th paint job I'm not so worried about appearance. Your stickers match nicely!!
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted April 25, 2010 12:32 PM
All right Dean!! Looks good to me. Your garage must have been a whirlwind of activity to get that thing back together so fast.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 25, 2010 05:33 PM
Yea the stickers look good.
I just picked up my trailer this weekend and i've gotta get a chock in it.
Thanks for the info on the chocks.
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CompetitionCNC.com
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted April 28, 2010 06:19 AM
Dean
I had 0.031-.032" on our ZX10 and was good with no issues just cleaned the carbon off the stock pistons in a few small spots.
I always go on the safer side with all motors i build.
Sal.
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted June 20, 2010 12:21 PM
Dean, any issues so far with about .030"?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted June 20, 2010 04:27 PM
No trouble down to .024" Scott. In fact this motor seemed to like it tight.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted June 20, 2010 05:19 PM
Thanks Dean, not quite apples to apples with what Im working on due to piston size ect, but I think Ill try something a little tighter than usual on my current build
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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