KZScott
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posted March 27, 2010 05:32 PM
head gasket or studs? tear down progress
so my bike hasnt ran since oct. at the race track it was running great untill all of a sudden the starter wouldnt work(last race of the yr middle of the afternoon on sunday). i dropped the motor tonight, pulled the starter, and found a spring off of one of the brushes. after an exercise in patience i got it back toger and it works.
then i decided to do a leak down before i started the tear down to compare with last yr (2s and 3s by the rings except for the exh valve that had the shim in sideways)
plugs looked great, cardboard colour
#1 10% out number 2 plug hole
#2 10% out number 1
#3 8% out number 4
#4 8% out number 3
damn 
I believe i tqd the APE studs around 50 pounds(not enough?). same type of HG. Jim lapped the head and I lapped the block. bike seemed to be running well as i was getting my best mph ever.
pulled valve cover and cam cap, cams appear to be a little scuffed? mostly exh cam. will get pics...
pulled head, some piston to head contact again this yr with a little more squish than last yr. hmmmm . 1 cylinder appears to have been running richer than the others(ex valves are darker) will get pics....
splitting cases tomorrow to see bearings
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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KZScott
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posted March 28, 2010 12:18 PM
plugs, #4 is a bit darker, ringer injector?
cams, the intake cam im running on the exh side doesnt turn in the cap as freely as the intake on the intake side. do i polish it? 2000 grit?
head
block and pistons
mains appear to be in good shape to me, the only odd one out was the upper case shell by the cam chain. im thinking from the 65 pound carpenter springs? btw the cam chain had a few tight spots, nothing major, and not nearly as bad as when i tore down my motor back when it was stock(and running well) but ill get a new one just incase. this one has 2 seasons on it.
(forgot to wipe oil away)
R&D trans still looking great, no bad teeth or dogs 
rod bearings look good to me aswell 
piston pins 2-4 looked fine, and i still have to pull them out for closer inspection, but #1 has some damage to one side. it wasnt stuck badly, but didnt push out with just your fingers.
good side
bad side
is this pin done for? it was pretty hot. I believe i can dr up the piston with a mostly gone dremmel cut of wheel to fix the oil groove, and some very fine grit sand paper to hone the pin bore. opinions?
i believe the root of this problem may be a compound effect of hitting the piston into the head and possibly a small piece of dirt blocking the flow of oil??
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted March 29, 2010 10:23 AM
How many passes on this build ?
This is the second time for the shim cocked ....
Your luck is pretty good !
Thanks for the pics !
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KZScott
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posted March 29, 2010 01:07 PM
a full season... im not sure, a lot
shims were fine, last yr they werent, i guess i worded that funny above.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 29, 2010 02:22 PM
APE got back to me on the studs. said they should be tq to 60 pounds. no need to re tq after a heat cycle.
looks like ill try 60 when it goes back together
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted March 30, 2010 02:32 AM
That was my next question.... The retorque after heat cycles
but there's the answer...
Is that a cometic head gasket?
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KZScott
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posted March 30, 2010 01:58 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 30 Mar 2010 21:58
yes, cometic gasket(new)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted March 30, 2010 05:13 PM
Scott, looks like the pistons were hitting the head pretty good.
and that's what caused your pin galling. The pins should all be replaced. The pistons may be savable. The pin bores need to be honed and they may clean up. If they clean up then you should mill .008" off the exhaust side squish area also. then you can still run the same spacers under the block.
The cams should always spin freely. Many times when you get weldup cams back they need additional straightening. I always straighten them to less than .001" total run-out.
You can clean all the oil off the cam saddle bores and coat the bores with blue dykem. torque the cams in without springs etc. and spin them several times and you will see where its rubbing. Sometimes there's little dings on the cam bores. If so you can clean them up with some fine sandpaper.
We can hone your pin bores for you and straighten your cams if you don't have anyone close to you.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted March 30, 2010 06:10 PM
thanks for your input Jim 
I may have to send you a big box of parts. im worried that the head or block may need to be surfaced, but my problems my have been just improper tq on the studs???
Ill pull the other 3 pins tomorrow night and check out the pin bores. going to work is seriously cutting into my bike time
are my pistons rocking in the bore and causing the head contact, or are these pistons just higher on the exh side?
these cams are stock, so Im suprised that they may be warped as they were fine before. im getting bigger ones so ill check them with the head when i get them.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted March 30, 2010 10:47 PM
Edited By: entropy on 31 Mar 2010 06:49
Scott,
great motor pix!
those pins are really galled, eh?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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JOHNJ
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted March 31, 2010 12:14 PM
As cheap as wrist pins are I`d just buy another set.
And for piece of mind I`d just buy a piston too. For what I`ve read you really take your time putting your motor together. I can`t believe these problems crop up on you. No disrespect here.
Good luck,
JJ
JJ`s Cycle Shop
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 31, 2010 01:03 PM
The problem is the squish was too tight for the combo you are running. If the pistons are loose in the bore then it makes the problem worse. It had nothing to do with the head torque.
Also revving an engine up before the OIL temps are 180 degrees is bad. The forged pistons need to get hot and expand to fit the bore. They will slap and rock cold. Even to the point where you can hear them doing so and a skirt can break.
Also check your rod pin bores. They may also be galled up. Basically you need to have the rods reconditioned if you are going to reuse them. The big end doesn't stay round long on these kawi rods. Ignore the book, if you replace the bolts then you need to re-size and hone the rods. Never put in new bolts and just bolt the rods back in.
Some of these piston pin bores are too small right from the manufacturer. They need to be honed even when brand new.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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osti33
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posted March 31, 2010 01:03 PM
IMO the pins are junk. The pistons need to have the pin bores honed at the very least to clean them up. If you can't get them cleaned up with a hone without going oversize on the pin bore then the pistons are scrap too. I would loosen up the squish a little for sure. Those pistons aren't kissing the head. They are smacking it. If it was me I would also check the small end of the rods too. That bushing may have taken a beating as well. On the plus side the bearings all look good. This is all just my opinion and what I would do if it was my engine. YMMV.
Sorry to see this Scott. I'll know you will get her back together better than ever.
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osti33
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posted March 31, 2010 01:06 PM
Doh. Jim posted the same time I did. Sounds like we both are thinking the same thing.
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KZScott
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posted March 31, 2010 01:34 PM
this was what I measured squish at on this build last spring
#1 0.041
#2 0.045
#3 0.046
#4 0.043
i really dont want to go bigger unless someone here can talk me into it
(going out to check pins now brb)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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posted March 31, 2010 02:44 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 31 Mar 2010 22:48
ok, 2 and 3 pushed out easily with just my fingers, 4 had a lit bit of a tight spot but still slid out no trouble with finger pressure. ( on #1 i had to push it out with a 3/8 extension)
all pins slide and twist freely in their respective small ends despite the galling. i actually had similar damage last yr and cleaned them up with 2000 grit paper(which didnt do much visually), so its hard to tell if any damage is from 08 or 09. the piston pin bores i also cleaned up(and they looked nice) and the damage you see there is new
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted April 03, 2010 01:00 PM
i stripped my head completely today, but did a little combustion chamber work first. cr on the last build was 13:1. keeping everything the same, the 4mm crank i have would put it at around 13.8:1 on the next build. I want to stay under 13.5 so Im hoping this will do the trick, and also help flow a bit
a few progress pics
comments on the other 3 pins and pistons???
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
JOHNJ
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted April 03, 2010 01:40 PM
IMO, Any scuffing,ect.ect.ect tells me that they need to be junked.
I work my pins/pistons until I can put them in the pin bores and turn the piston on it`s side and the just fall out with min. drag on the pin/bore. What brand wrist pins are you using? Too many issues going on in your motor build to tell what the cause is.
Good luck
JJ
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KZScott
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posted April 03, 2010 02:22 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 3 Apr 2010 22:29
these are JE pins that came with the 1287 pistons
last yr they looked like this
I was told they could be cleaned up and ran, so thats what I did.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
JOHNJ
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted April 03, 2010 05:15 PM
Have you considered trying some pins from APE?
They make some bad ass pins.
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KZScott
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posted April 03, 2010 05:54 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 4 Apr 2010 01:57
I dont really think i would have pin problems if i could keep the pistons off of the head, but yeah Ive looked at their tool steel pins
comments on the rod small ends? should they be honed? bushed? (even pissible?)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
VincentHill
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posted April 05, 2010 07:25 AM
Scott, two things, I clean up my small end of the rods with Crocus Cloth or maybe 1000 Sand paper! I take a 1/4 piece of steel tod and Slit it for about 2 inches and put in paper and wrap it around several times and then "Hone" the Small end to get it clean and a nice oil Cross Hatch.
Second, maybe not necessary here but when looking at the Spark Plugs, the place to "Read" the Plug is at the inside base where the Porcelain touched the Metal shell of the plug.
Also if you plan to use the pistons or some of the Pistons, use 320 Wet & Dry Paper to hone the Wrist Pin area with the same tool! Just get them clean so you do not take out too much metal and get too large of a space and then have the Pins too loose.
A lot of work ahead of you!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted April 05, 2010 12:23 PM
thanks VH, Ive seen a similar home made tool in my buddys garage. Ill have to make one for my dremmel or drill
anyone else? should the block and head be skimmed?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted April 05, 2010 12:28 PM
My recommendations:
Replace the pins, and have the rods and pistons properly honed for a precise .001 pin fit. The rods aren't bad enough to need bushings, they'll clean up fine. I'd probably replace that one piston. Make sure the rings are free in the top groove (they should be, I don't think it the pistons were smacking the head hard enough to collapse them). Jim is good on the .008. An easier way would be to add another base gasket, but that will cost you slightly more compression than just machining the squish.
Just curious, what oil are you running?
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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VincentHill
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posted April 05, 2010 01:14 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 5 Apr 2010 21:16
Listen to Dr. Doug, but a Dremel is waay to fast to control. The idea is to remove the high spots and keep the low spots! The low spots fill with Oil and that is a good thing. The coarser 220 to 320 Paper is better for the Pistons to give a nice Cross Hatch and keep some oil between the Pins and the Pistons. No Question about replacing the Pins. My question is are your pins "Taper Bored" or the heavier and stronger "Straight Bored" on the inside.
I also see the tapered ends on the wrist pins and the circle wire locks, There is NOTHING better to control the wrist Pins from leaving the pistons. Remember, if you replace a rod, to make sure you match the numbers so you have the same weight and you must have new bolts and nuts for any new rod. Also remember that Torque is one thing, but (for me) the way I measure how tight is the length of the torqued Bolt.
All bolts are like very stong springs. FOr a spring to work, it must first be stretched a little to keep tension. Like all springs, if you stretch it too much, you weaken it, too little and it is not working enough to work!
Good luck!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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