Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 21, 2010 04:55 PM
quote:
I hear ya Shane...
sometimes you just have to listen and do as the Romans do cause the answer was never told...
Sometimes it makes you wonder...does anyone know the answer, or is it a big secret? 
  
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 21, 2010 05:11 PM
well I followed Tims advice, he says its pretty much std procedure for road race engines to be built without the grease or oil on the backs. proper oil flow should take care of any heat issues i would think? preventing a bearing from spinning would be top priority to me.
Karl, Im interedted in your edited post. if you dont want it public i wouldnt mind getting it as an email if you have the time. allways looking for more info 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 21, 2010 05:31 PM
I find this thread very, very discouraging.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 21, 2010 05:36 PM
fyi, the shells wont come out of the cases unless you pull them out after you split the cases. they are kinda spring loaded and stay put. so you could leave them alone...
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 21, 2010 11:39 PM
 Edited By: entropy on 22 Jan 2010 07:47
quote:
I find this thread very, very discouraging.
kinda like a "what's the best oil" thread??
Lots of opinions.
Shane,
It seems that in many areas of motor building there are several options you could choose from, this is one of those areas.
Like NOX says, I follow the manual unless someone like Chin, DougMeyer, Y2K expresses a strong preference to do otherwise.
For 4 years, I have been keeping a BIG (over 10,000 lines) spreadsheet with all my motor build/dyno/ teardown results AND the opinion of experts on specific issues.
I am like you Shane in that I want to KNOW how stuff works, what is the RIGHT solution. But I am chasing a ghost.
in the last 2 years I've had my motor on the bench 25 times, on the dyno 55 times, full records of everything. Motor is on the bench right now.
Bottom line; The experts do not always agree on these type issues, oftentimes there is NOT one answer.
My belief is that spinning bearings is probably ALWAYS due to oil starvation, nothing to do with a dab of oil, moly, assembly lube on the backside of a bearing.
I used to assemble rods just like the manual says, now i do the back of the shell scrupulously dry, but my records show no difference in bearing or journal appearance between the methods.
I oil the main journals before pushing the in shells, did it last night for my Mojave build.
It seems the manual is silent on lube/no lube main shells, but every time i pull down a motor the backs of the mains are ALWAYS wet. I figure if they are gonna get wet anyway, why not install that way.
Now I'm going out to the garage, put pistons, rods, rings, cyl together.
Hmmmmm... shall i install the rings dry or lube 'em???? (see what i mean?)
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 22, 2010 03:37 AM
Thanks for the post, Karl. It may even be true that there is no "wrong way" or "right way", just personal preference.
Sometimes I am considered "difficult" because I don't just take things at face value. And believe me, that is only one of the reasons that I am considered "difficult".
Shane
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 22, 2010 09:07 AM
Traditionally there has been a recommendation for some form of high pressure lubricant on the "backside" of a plain bearing shell, especially on the shell that experiences the greatest load (like rod shell, not cap shell). This is to avoid fretting or spalling (look 'em up) on the back of the shell from the inevitable microsopic relative movement between the shell and the "housing". In the big V-8 race engine builds we accomplished this with a routine spray of dry moly on the backsides of all shells, and this is what I still always do. We like to re-use good bearings where possible and if necessary to get a proper clearance and this practice helps preserve the bearing shell over repeated use and assemblies.
Has nothing to do with heat transfer. Ask yourself- "Would an insulating layer of grease between two clean metal surfaces help or hinder the transfer of heat between those surfaces?" THINK people.
Here's the tip of the week:
If you have to work on the transmission with the engine in the bike, remove the bodywork, drain the oil and remove the battery. side covers and exhaust if necesary, Lay a blanket on the floor, get some extra muscle and LAY THE BIKE ON ITS SIDE. You also might prop the wheels up on a couple of buckets or crates. You can sit there with the bottom of the engine literally in your lap, and do a very nice and easy job of r&r-ing all the necessary removable shift shaft and fork parts. Sound's like something you just shouldn't do, but your bike won't care, really.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 22, 2010 09:22 AM
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6Y773?cm_mmc=Google%20Base-_-Lubrication-_-Lubricants-_-6Y773
just in case you'd like a link
great stuff .... My.01 worth
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted January 22, 2010 01:57 PM
quote:
Here's the tip of the week:
If you have to work on the transmission with the engine in the bike, remove the bodywork, drain the oil and remove the battery. side covers and exhaust if necesary, Lay a blanket on the floor, get some extra muscle and LAY THE BIKE ON ITS SIDE. You also might prop the wheels up on a couple of buckets or crates. You can sit there with the bottom of the engine literally in your lap, and do a very nice and easy job of r&r-ing all the necessary removable shift shaft and fork parts. Sound's like something you just shouldn't do, but your bike won't care, really.
Doug
That is a good idea Doug. I never thought about laying the bike over on it's side. 
Ryan
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted January 22, 2010 02:51 PM
quote:
Here's the tip of the week:
If you have to work on the transmission with the engine in the bike, remove the bodywork, drain the oil and remove the battery. side covers and exhaust if necesary, Lay a blanket on the floor, get some extra muscle and LAY THE BIKE ON ITS SIDE. You also might prop the wheels up on a couple of buckets or crates. You can sit there with the bottom of the engine literally in your lap, and do a very nice and easy job of r&r-ing all the necessary removable shift shaft and fork parts. Sound's like something you just shouldn't do, but your bike won't care, really.
Doug
Cant wait for someone to fab a complete bike stand to hold the bike in the inverted possition...
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 22, 2010 03:17 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 22 Jan 2010 23:18
I have actually (back in the Z-1 days) worked on a drag bike completely inverted sitting on the handlebars like a bicycle.
Oh I forgot- TAKE OF THE GAS TANK
Can't be too careful........ 
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted January 22, 2010 03:36 PM
I have a friend that did that to a CBR 1000. The OLD ones.
I put my front tire on a 6 " block, and the rear on a stand, to change the forks,etc.
I would never split the cases with it in the motor..........
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chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
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posted January 22, 2010 04:55 PM
While at the drag strip in 1980 I watched a racer flip his XS1100 on its side in the pits and pull the tranny. It certainly was easy to do with the old naked bikes.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 17, 2011 12:08 PM
I am bumping this thread because, well...there is some good stuff here.
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