MadMike
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posted December 11, 2006 11:26 AM
Hey G... speaking of shipping, I have your DBZ T-shirts... 2ea-XL correct? PM me your address again... thanks...
MM
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stef12rr
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posted December 11, 2006 02:14 PM
thank's you are very kind but i will make one at the shop
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 11, 2006 06:49 PM
quote:
The balancer is addressing "harmonic's". If our cranks were OUT of balance stock, then the balancer would/could not correct the problem. To get 10,000 rpms your CRANK needs to be balanced.......This balancing issue in this motor is exaggerated by some here.
This is true. 4 cylinder, 4 stroke (otto cycle) engines are neutral balanced. To balance the crank you dont add bob weights like V8 and other engines.
The "balancer" is just like a harmonic "balancer" on a domestic V8 engine. They arnt actually a "balancer" but rather a damper. It should be called a harmonic damper on a chevy V8. Althou on SBC 400's it is a balancer as well because the engine is externally balanced and... well thats another topic. On the zx12r it absorbs the acceleration and deceleration forces on the crankshaft to smooth out the engine. When weight was added to the zx12r crank in 02 (?) it actually helped reduce this fluctuation in rotating speed as well.
The damper spins at twice crankshaft speed.... But it doesnt actually reduce torsional crankshaft harmonics like a V8 damper does. at least i dont think it can being driven towards the middle of the crank. I might be wrong on that. While WOT and the bike is accelerating like we all love so much, each cylinder fires every 180 degrees the crank accelerates in rotation from the fireing pulse and then the acceleration of rotation actually decreases untill the next cylinder fires. So lets say it is spinning at 9,600 and a cylinder fires and it accelerates to 9,605 rpm. Well before the next cylinder in order fires the rpm may drop to 9,604 and then the next cylinder that fires brings it to 9,610 and it slows to 9,609...
It will also help the engine idle smoother because the fluctuations in crankshaft rotation are much bigger at an idle. If the fluctuations get too extreme the kennetic energy in the rotating mass will be over come and all hell breaks loose and shit hits the fan.
No the engine doesnt blow up, and grenade, but its even worse than that!!! The engine stalls and all your buddiesbust your stones cause your bike stalled. 
This is why Harley Davidson engines dont idle well or run very smooth. They have this syndrome to the extreme. But yes, even HD has added "balancers" for just this reason.
Bottom line, you dont need to balance the crank when you remove the "balancer".
It will only be as out of balance as it was before you removed the "balancer".
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 11, 2006 06:55 PM
Oh, the HP gains are minimal. I cant imagine it taking more that a couple of hp to spin that thing to 23,250 rpm.
One thing you can thak Kawi for is spinning it twice crankshaft speed. It alows it to have less mass but acts like it has more mass.
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zrxdean
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posted December 11, 2006 10:35 PM
Holy thread resurrection Batman!
I picked up about 3hp when I took the 'balancer' out of the ZRX 4 years ago. I was advised to have the crank balanced by a more experienced person than myself, but I've heard from several others since then that it isn't required. Not sure what the potential differences are between the ZX11 and ZX12 balancers might be if any.
Thanks for the deeper explanation Jim, looking forward to seeing your 12 at the grudge race.
Dean
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 12, 2006 03:04 AM
Dean, 3 hp sounds totally realistic. I spun up my stroker crank at by buddies shop just to check Marines work and it was excelent. Right on the money.
It looks like a go, I'll be there for the race. Dont expect me to set any records thou.
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Ozzy
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posted December 12, 2006 10:34 PM
If it is like the Z11, the balancer can be removed with the engine in the bike. If i remember correctly Frank Hartung had posted a how to on Jereons old site.
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MadMike
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posted December 12, 2006 10:45 PM
the gear will not come out without splitting the cases... if I remember correctly...
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park12r
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posted December 13, 2006 05:48 AM
you have to split the cases
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Megabyte
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posted December 13, 2006 01:04 PM
My 2k Zx-12r Crank was balanced and balancer removed when MVR did the 1361 upgrade. After the 1361, the 4000 rpm buzz was gone, and motor was very smooth.
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stef12rr
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posted December 13, 2006 02:41 PM
Megabyte
So i can take it out ( balancer) no problem, tel me if you some work on the crank ( take some weight off)
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Megabyte
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posted December 13, 2006 09:09 PM
quote:
Megabyte
So i can take it out ( balancer) no problem, tel me if you some work on the crank ( take some weight off)
I wouldn't remove the balancer unless you plan to balance the crank.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 14, 2006 02:55 AM
Didnt you read my post above?
Removing the "balancer" has nothing to do with the primairy balance of the rotating assembly.
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oof440
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posted December 14, 2006 06:09 AM
I just got an email back from curt at muzzys and he said said what yxkzx12r did. I'm planning on doing this to mine while I've got it apart doin the tranny.
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MadMike
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posted December 14, 2006 08:15 AM
hey oof440, I have an extra one if you want it... just pay shipping and a couple of beers...
MM
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MadMike
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posted December 14, 2006 08:16 AM
quote:
Didnt you read my post above?
Removing the "balancer" has nothing to do with the primairy balance of the rotating assembly.
I was thinking the same thing??
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Megabyte
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posted December 14, 2006 10:30 AM
quote:
Didnt you read my post above?
Removing the "balancer" has nothing to do with the primairy balance of the rotating assembly.
Just read it, my bad although I'm wondering why my engine runs smoother w/o it?
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stef12rr
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posted December 14, 2006 02:46 PM
ok guys take it easy ! i will speak for myself my crank has 2.2lbs off for a total weight of 22.8lbs so i have no choice to balance it and when i spoke with Taiges at APE American Performance Engineeringhe toll me that the crank are poorly balanced from the compagnie.
i think just checking to be sure it's balancer properly it's a good think
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 14, 2006 06:03 PM
Steff, I didnt spin mine up stock. I cant comment how well Kawi balanced the stockers.
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MadMike
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posted December 14, 2006 06:12 PM
I hope this does not come out the wrong way. because APE has always been good to me. but if I say owned a business that did crankshafts and I could charge an extra 1-2 hundy, I personally would also reccomend that you balance your crankshaft. and I would also say that the company did not balence them the greatest... eventhough I would bet a bunch that the OEM cranks are within Kawi, balancing spec...many times racers want to go to the next level, and that is what APE does... and I had APE do my crank...
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 15, 2006 03:54 AM
I agree mike. If you have it out you might as well have it checked. It shouldnt be more that 1 hour charge to check it. It actually took me about 5 min to check it sence its a neutral balance crank. You just put it on the rollers take some dimensional measurements and enter them in and spin it up. A 5 min job. It will take longer to unpack it (if shipped) and repack it than to actually check the balance. Of course it it needs some grinding to bring it in balance then that takes a bit longer.
When a stroker crank is welded, ground and ready for balancing then that will take some time. A lot more material needs to be removed compared to a tweek of a stock crank.
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NOX
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posted December 15, 2006 06:04 AM
Glad this came back up.....
I have my cases split on the engine stand right now, and I have been wanting to take out the "balancer" for some extra hp, but I want this thing to last..........
My crank and bearings all look good right now, so I am going to just do a valve check and put it back together when the tranny comes back...........
How many true miles did you guys get after doing this mod........, I don't trust anything that comes from anyone at Muzzy's, they have lied to me too many times. Couple seasons?
We are talking like 30 passes a month on a slow month here...........
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MadMike
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posted December 15, 2006 07:10 AM
Nox I would believe with a stock crank you would get "unlimited" time... but as with any mechanical device it is going to fail someday... on my stroker, that was balanced and nitrided and I removed the balancer and put in the muzzy part I had 2 solid years before I spun a bearing. I had a minium of 1200 passes on that motor... 35-40 races a year and 3-4 "event's" with 30-40 passes for those... and then test and tune's... about 3 dyno sessions...
I hope that helps...
Oh and Y2K, I believe his stroker has lived on the street for quite a while!
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stef12rr
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posted December 15, 2006 04:42 PM
Good body's we have the same passion: bikes and motor that's run well.
Y2KZX12R, you gave me a lot of good advice and I followed them.
you Mad, you were ready to give me your muzzy balancer dummy for a beer and you don't even know me... so kind!
Mad I might go to the bike show in NY this year. Are you planning on being there? I'll pay you your beer!!!
Today, I took off 3/4 of a pound on my magnet. Can you guys believe that? My girlfriend even told me that she doesn't have to go back to the gym as I took off so much weight off my bike! Damn! :-(
next tuesday i will receive my 1287cc piston and cylinder from APE I can't wait !!!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 15, 2006 05:56 PM
Steff, I'll be at the NY show again this year. We usually go on Fri. its a lot less crowded.
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