KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted October 13, 2009 01:09 PM
zx12r 1427 and other stroker questions
first question. how much are the cylinder bores offset from factory, and if possible, what is the exact spacing center to center to center to center?
#2 when you have the journals moved in order to match the offset block(ive heard Karl mention having Marine do it), what exactly is done to the starter gear? turned down narrower?(how much?)
#3 what is the limitation on going with a longer stroke than the typical 4.6mm (60mm crank)? I have heard about a 5mm/60.4 crank (super bike mike??) i have also heard of a 63mm crank, but im not sure if the bike was self starting or not.
#4 more of an observation than a question... Muzzy has a listing for billet cranks they offer two versions of the 60mm crank, one with std bore spacing, and the other with offset journals to match the billet block. their offset crank doesnt have the starter gear, but im pretty sure Karl has his offset and retains the oem starter.... they also list a 62.4mm crank which has offset journals and doesnt have a starter gear. this may be the 63mm crank i have heard of(somebody rounded up??)
the bigger crank and offset block make a 1484cc combo... im wondering if thats really the limit or not....a SBM 87mm block was not offset, so maybe the Muzzy 87mm offset block can go bigger? or maybe a new block could be made with more offset?(Tim Hays maybe) is there a reason why it cant be done?
please give your opinions 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted October 13, 2009 01:48 PM
quote:
first question. how much are the cylinder bores offset from factory, and if possible, what is the exact spacing center to center to center to center?
no idea what the factory spacing is
#2 when you have the journals moved in order to match the offset block(ive heard Karl mention having Marine do it), what exactly is done to the starter gear? turned down narrower?(how much?)
the starter gear is adjacent to #3 rod journal, i don't know if it is trimmed or not (don't think so)
#3 what is the limitation on going with a longer stroke than the typical 4.6mm (60mm crank)? I have heard about a 5mm/60.4 crank (super bike mike??) i have also heard of a 63mm crank, but im not sure if the bike was self starting or not.
longer than 60 you get into serious issues with the starter clutch gear, even with 4.6mm stroker you need to modify the starter clutch gear substantially. 63mm stroker means ditching self starting
#4 more of an observation than a question... Muzzy has a listing for billet cranks they offer two versions of the 60mm crank, one with std bore spacing, and the other with offset journals to match the billet block. their offset crank doesnt have the starter gear, but im pretty sure Karl has his offset and retains the oem starter.... they also list a 62.4mm crank which has offset journals and doesnt have a starter gear. this may be the 63mm crank i have heard of(somebody rounded up??)
i definitely have Marine offset my cranks and my motor is self starting
the bigger crank and offset block make a 1484cc combo... im wondering if thats really the limit or not....a SBM 87mm block was not offset, so maybe the Muzzy 87mm offset block can go bigger? or maybe a new block could be made with more offset?(Tim Hays maybe) is there a reason why it cant be done?
no reason you couldn't bore out the 87 but then you'd ave the worst of both world's: offset crank/block with all it's issues; AND very thin space between cylinders.
please give your opinions
having WAY more experience with 1427 kit than I ever wanted to get, my advice is DO NOT DO IT.
For NA, I feel that a 1397 (4.6mm stroker and 86mm pistons) can be made to keep HG's with uber build care, and that the whole issue with offset crank/cyl is avoided.
Remember that the offset cyl makes the combustion chambers offset wrt the head. I have no proof but it can't be good for flow.
You really wanna build a big inch motor buy a Busa.
I'm not giving up on my quirky 1427 because i know it and i continue to learn; November is injection system tests
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 13, 2009 03:02 PM
Yes, I love Kaws, but if you want HUGE, buy a busa.
The limit on the 12, is the tranny. you go real big, you better get an auto tranny. 2011, I hope to run super comp, when I do, i will have a full auto tranny......
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted October 13, 2009 03:03 PM
Karl, ill never own a busa unless someone gives me one.... and then ill sell it 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted October 13, 2009 03:05 PM
Nox, what are the (few) 550+hp turbo 12s running for a trans? (example Doug Rays 562hp turbo 12)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 13, 2009 03:20 PM
Same as me.
On a GOOOOOD HOOOKIN TRACK.
Put them on my home track in that vid....., and they wont get down it because it wont shift.
a cut busa trans will shift, when a cut 12 tranny wont. Its due to 5 dogs on a cut 12, vs 3 on a cut busa.
a set up has to be better on the 12 than other bikes....., but when its good, they are as good as they come, cc for cc.
We have spoken of this before.
But, no one will argue........
That formula Superbike that Coby Adams built, that Jim Carroll rode, was one BAD MOFO.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
|
posted October 13, 2009 04:02 PM
Auto trans. don`t make the trans. stronger.....Infact they cut more off the dogs and add springs in betreen the gears so they slide into the pockets without the use of any kill between shifts......Sometimes they have to slpit a gear in half to make it a auto.....A full auto will just give you more E/T because of no air kill and it shifts wheather you spin or not.....I`ve had 1-2 auto`s/1,2,3 auto`s, and full auto`s in my dragbikes, it`s just different cuts on the gears dogs and pockets and the drum is cut different too.....Just by running a 1-2 auto will gain you about 1 to 1.5 tenths in e/t......The momentum you carry through 1st and 2nd with no kill carrys you all the way through the 1/4 mile.....But if you back off the throttle before 2nd gear, you will most likely have bent shift forks.....
____________
Life in the Fast Lane..........
|
brickman
Expert Class
Posts: 294
|
posted October 13, 2009 04:24 PM
kz i fell your pain man. how can a company "Kawasaki" get something so right but yet so wrong. and keep doing it year after year.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 13, 2009 04:25 PM
Yes, thats the ticket. And, thats why I want one........
But, also, why I have not gotten one yet.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
|
posted October 13, 2009 05:10 PM
Scott - I suspect a 1394 will run heads up with a 1427 and be infinitely more reliable. However the billet block certainly adds rigidity to the motor. Best of both worlds is likely the 1320 bilet block (or a pinned OEM block) and 4-4.6 mm stroke?
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted October 14, 2009 03:05 AM
What kind of hp #'s does a typical stroker 12R make? How much mph at the dragstrip?
I'm sure that a fairly reliable one can be built. That would be a pretty simple swap for you, wouldn't it Scott? Dropping in a stroker crank to make a 1394? I wonder how much that would affect compression?
But then you probably wouldn't want to spray it much...
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted October 14, 2009 10:04 AM
I would say that my 1427 is very reliable (knock-knock), now that i have (mostly) learned to build it.
Scott can set the compression wherever he wants it with base gaskets.
hp for typical (NA) stroker?
1375 - 195-205 still streetable
1427 - 210-ish pumpgas streetable, barely
1427 - 215-240 racegas streetable sort of
there are exceptions AND dynojet dynos are all over the map, 10-15 hp differences not unusual.
just my pointy headed experience.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted October 14, 2009 10:59 AM
My last 1375 made 211 on pump gas and the following build
was a 1394 which made around 220 on C-16 (a little more
compression 14:1 and a little touch of timing +5) both ran a 70
shot with out problems until I pinched a fuel hose ( becareful
with them cut tanks and a fat arse, lol)
Gary
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted October 14, 2009 11:17 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Oct 2009 19:19
STD or SAE, Karl, Gary?
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted October 14, 2009 11:32 AM
I think I am at 196 with stock heads and cam.That was with the ignition set at 0 advance.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted October 14, 2009 01:49 PM
Well I'm riding my 1427 12r on the street on 92 pump fuel and that's 220 HP on a conservative dynojet dyno. The MRX-01 at Loring went several more MPH but I haven't been able to get it back on the dyno with the mrx-01 to know for sure what kind of power it added.
I'm guessing 12 hp or so. I'll expect to see 230-235 hp on the mrx-01 in the current configuration.
If you simply took the head off and milled it another .015" and changed the cam timing to 110/108 or so, what ever the tightest p to v will allow, then you would have to run race fuel.
I'd expect on race fuel with an added point or point and a half of compression it will make about 235-240 dynojet HP.
I think a 1427 can be reliable. You just have to make EVERYTHING right. There is no room for any mistakes. Mines got several hundred miles now and its an awesome bike to go canyon carving with. You can leave blackies out of any corner at any speed in any gear at any time. I just love it in this configuration. Its a completely different bike than the stock head stock cammed 1375 was.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted October 14, 2009 01:52 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Oct 2009 21:53
Jim, 220 STD? I'm trying to compare a few configurations here and I'd like to get everyone on the same page, correction-factor-wise.
Have your crankshaft journals been machined like Karl's?
Shane
|
Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
|
posted October 14, 2009 02:17 PM
Edited By: Phantom Menace on 14 Oct 2009 22:18
What's wrong with a 1287? There's a lot of potential in that engine, at least that's what I hear. =)
|
2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
|
posted October 14, 2009 04:27 PM
hope so cause i am doing a 1270.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted October 14, 2009 06:08 PM
a 1394 would be an easy swap for me(base spacer and retime the cams), but if im going over 1350cc i want to go huge . i like pushing the limit and learning how this does or doesnt work. i may leave it as is depending on how my winter goes, but i like learning whenever possible
Jim, what would it take to get the starter clutch gear to be not in the way of a 60++mm crank?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted October 14, 2009 09:45 PM
Edited By: entropy on 15 Oct 2009 06:51
quote:
Jim, 220 STD? I'm trying to compare a few configurations here and I'd like to get everyone on the same page, correction-factor-wise.
Shane
Shane,
Good idea, but IMO not really possible to the level of precision you want, "mic-ing a brick" comes to mind.
1. Dynojet dyno results vary more than the BASIC difference between incremental engine sizes. Correction factors? another issue. Even the FactoryPro varies, although MUCH less deviation than DJ.
2. there can be a large difference in hp on 2 same sized motors; e.g. Pete's 196hp and Jim's 220++, both street 1427's. slight config differences.
3. I have seen a 30hp increase on my 1427 on a FactPro due to very small, incremental hard to chase config details.
4. small motors seem to make more hp/cc than big motors, Mikes faster than stink 1270.
5. fuels...
6. only way to really compare motor hp is the dragstrip (not LSR)
I know squat about anything but my 1427, but i have a huge amount of data on it.
Motor has been on the bench at least 25 times since mid 2007, prob 40-50 times to 4 different dynos (mostly Andy's).
All set up data carefully logged into a giant spread sheet.
Conclusion?
1. want mojo hp? go to Jim or other "out there" builder, or roll up yr sleeves and get ready for the long haul.
2. there are mysterious, voodoo things going on when trying to get the last 10-5-2-1% hp, sometimes not reproducible from notes.
all that just my opinion.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 14, 2009 10:11 PM
Which is why Pro Stock Car still is fun to watch, and guys go nuts in the class.......
There are minor minor tuning tricks, that can lead to tons of a half hp there, here , over there, etc.
We got a hold of an old chevy (factory) tuning book, where factory guys were trying different stuff on the dyno.....
Built some crazy headers for my father in laws A/sa entry. Had to take them right back off when he tested it at houston a few years back. I asked why on the phone.......
He said, I could not see anything but sky and grandstands it was standing on the bumper for so long.......
We did find a compromise......,
I love these discussions.......
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted October 15, 2009 05:18 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2009 13:47
Well Karl, I know what you are saying...
But I also know that starting off by comparing results with different correction factors is certainly laying a bad foundation.
I did ask about the dragstrip mph #'s...but nobody chimed in. Of course you can say the same thing about those #'s...combined rider/vehicle weight, temps, fuel, shift points, rider technique, and elevation, etc...all factor big into mph from my personal experience.
I'm just trying to look at the data out there, and make the best possible comparisons and conclusions.
How about this...does anyone have a dyno chart to show the SHAPE of the powerband?
For comparison purposes, here is my 14, on a DJ200, pump fuel...vs MR9 with short velocity stacks.
SAE correction factor, with a fat map.
Shane
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted October 15, 2009 07:31 AM
Edited By: shiphteey on 15 Oct 2009 15:33
Hey Shane, George B's 1427 you've seen here at the shop went 203 mph at Maxton with about that to the back wheel. Pump gas. Nothing crazy, just a 1427 built for all day streetability. Same dyno as what you rolled on so 20 more HP give or take. Big variables though...diff day....diff fuels....etc. I think that 1427 has only seen 93 pump.
Bike has 8400 miles on it, it was torn down and built to 1427 when it was brand new off the showroom!
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted October 15, 2009 07:41 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2009 16:03
The ambient conditions should not be a huge, huge factor on your dyno (since it is corrected, and is the same dyno my bike was on). Thanks Ali. 
Anyone else? I'm curious as to what the curve looks like, given the high-winding nature of the 12R.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC