rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 19, 2009 01:15 PM
My hone came from Brush Research today. I will try it this evening and take some pics.
  
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted October 19, 2009 08:36 PM
I tore apart a knocking zrx1200 the other day and all cylinders had much noticeable wear. At the top and bottom of the cylinders the wear was evident. Crosshatching completely gone. Motor had 50k on it and was using some oil. Wish I woulda measured it now.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 20, 2009 12:13 AM
quote:
My hone came from Brush Research today. I will try it this evening and take some pics.
Rob,
please give us the measurements before and after.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 22, 2009 07:03 PM
 Edited By: rgeorge on 23 Oct 2009 03:08
Karl, I was anxious to use the hone and didn't bring the block in from the garage (35*F on Monday) to warm enough so I could get a good measurement before honing.
I looked up my numbers from my build:
Block as received from Millennium
date; 5/28/09
temp 71.4*F
1. 3.30750
2. 3.30775
3. 3.30770
4. 3.30775
The cylinders were perfectly round with no measurable taper.
Since that build the engine has about 20hrs of operation. Most of that time is break-in and developing new fuel maps. It did have a few HARD runs tuning the nitrous system.
During tear down I found some minor scratches similar to the pic you posted. Honing for 20 sec removed 99% of the scratches. After honing I took some measurements. I looked at each cylinder in 6 places. Top, middle, and bottom; front to back, and side to side at each height. The cylinders were still perfectly round, front to back or side to side made no difference. The bottom measurement was taken from below where the rings cause wear and was close to the original numbers. The top and middle numbers were about the same and did show some wear.
indicator zero was set at the original size for each cylinder (shown above).
date 10/21/09
temp 74.9*F
....... Bottom ........... Top
1. +.00010 ...... +.00035
2. +.00025 ...... +.00035
3. +.00015 ...... +.00045
4. +.00005 ...... +.00035
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted October 22, 2009 08:18 PM
I wonder how the cylinders grow when the engine is making power. You'd think the bottom of the bore wouldn't grow as much as the top since there is much less heat at the bottom. Be interesting to know the actual difference then you could hone/taper your cylinders to match and therefore achieve even better ring sealing or get a longer lasting seal. Does anyone use a torqueplate to similate a head being bolted on and then hone bike cylinders? It's extremely common in car engine building.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 22, 2009 08:29 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 23 Oct 2009 04:40
Bore size does change significantly with temperature. Thats why I always record temp along with the measurement. Aluminum is a very good heat conductor, so I assume the block heats up fairly evenly.
Most bike engines (except ZX14) have head bolts that go all the way through the block and thread into to crankcase. This causes straight down clamping pressure with no distortion. If the head bolts thread into the cylinder block, the cylinders will be distorted when the bolts are tightened.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 22, 2009 09:08 PM
after honing:
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 24, 2009 12:06 AM
nice job!!!
looks better than mine, but no GB's 
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted October 24, 2009 08:42 AM
here here where are the GBs?
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 24, 2009 02:57 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 24 Oct 2009 22:58
By GB I assume you mean bobblehead George Brett. 
He is gonna help me slide the block back down over the pistons.
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted October 27, 2009 07:41 AM
Looks great!
"Bobblehead George Brett" LMFAO!! 
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted October 28, 2009 07:39 AM
hey rgeorge what hone did u use exactly from brush research. Wanted to order one because it worked great.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted October 28, 2009 08:18 PM
I used a 83mm 240 grit aluminium oxide hone. The standard for most hones they sell is silicon carbide. It is harder and will probably cut a little more aggressively than aluminum oxide. If I were to use a SC hone, I would use 320 grit. Nikasil is a very hard plating, but both these abrasives are even harder. They will scratch the surface, but it will take a lot of effort to make a dimensional change.
The hones are oversized to provide preload to the walls. My bores are 84mm and the 83mm hone worked nicely. Just a light preload on the walls.
Sidenote: Yes I have 84mm bores, thats +1mm for the ZX12, makes 1229cc. Most people go bigger than that when they bore and replate, but I am more concerned with cylinder wall thickness than getting an extra 4% displacement.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 28, 2009 11:32 PM
Rob,
I gotta assume you will be ready for March Texas Mile????
Karl
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted October 09, 2010 09:20 AM
quote:
We use diamond stones in a sunnen cv-16 which pumps coolant while honing. I'm not sure on the crosshatch angle. I could find out.
Watch the block temps when honing and measuring bores. If the block gets hot let it cool before measuring.
But you guys are just cleaning up so heat shouldn't be an issue.
This is what my engine builder uses too.
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knecum
Novice Class
Posts: 54
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posted October 12, 2010 06:30 PM
Ball honing the nikelsil cylinders is the wrong thing to do.. Diamond hone only
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 12, 2010 06:35 PM
quote:
Ball honing the nikelsil cylinders is the wrong thing to do.. Diamond hone only
Welcome to Bikeland 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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knecum
Novice Class
Posts: 54
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posted October 12, 2010 06:43 PM
Hey thanks, my name is Steve, for those who don't know me just Google me!!! Haha thanks again..!!
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted October 12, 2010 06:48 PM
Yay!! Steve is here! Way cool to have you aboard man! Looking forward to many more good things from you guys next year.
Ryan
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 12, 2010 08:48 PM
welcome aboard Steve!
glad you revived this thread, reminds me to get those lazy slut barbies back to work.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted October 13, 2010 04:47 AM
I did mine that way, VERY lightly, just to get a touch of crosshatch back in em, when I rebuilt the stock motor......, and I think everyone here will agree, my stockers hauls balls......
It may blow up next outting, but its running good now.
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knecum
Novice Class
Posts: 54
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posted October 13, 2010 04:53 AM
Edited By: knecum on 13 Oct 2010 12:55
Its not that you can't do it and if you did its going to explode as the hone goes in.. But if you did, look at it under a microscope and the one from millennium looks like glass, and the one from a ball hone looks like 60 grit sandpaper.. Call millennium and ask them, they do it for a living... You can see it with the naked eye let alone i microscope.. Hey do what you want..
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted October 13, 2010 04:33 PM
Thats good info.
Guess at worst my motor will need rings a little quicker. I could care less, as my concern is rods, as it only sees 7500-11,800.
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42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted October 13, 2010 06:08 PM
Glad to have you Steve, You'll class up the place for sure!
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted October 14, 2010 04:48 AM
Hey Steve welcome.
There are several factors in a proper hone.
1 the cross hatch angle.
2 the grit of the stone.
3 the stone material.
The stone material is key to cylindricity. Honing a bore for 20 minutes and not removing very much material is just a waste of time and productivity but it also makes the cylinder all wavy and tapered and not round. Bad for ring seal. Fresh stones with good equipment helps create good cylindricity but compared to the new technologies GM is using today for the LS-7 block bores our Sunnen CV 616 is primitive.
The grit is dependant of the rings used as is the cross hatch angle. The ring manufacturer will tell you what they recommend. The rings wont last long or wont ever sea if the RA finish is too smooth or too coarse. Its a balance between oil retention and seal. Some rings don't need much oil retention and some need a rough initial finish to seat.
Theres also plateau finishes which is what these modern bike cylinders need to have wityh these low tension hard rings. That's where you use two different stones, diamond in this case, to finish the bore off. You knock off the tops of the mountains with a very fine stone very quickly at the end.
One thing to note is that most bores are never really cleaned properly before assembly. it takes quite a while with several cleaners to get ALL the crap out of the cross hatch.
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CompetitionCNC.com
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