Y2KZX12R
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posted September 02, 2009 06:42 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 2 Sep 2009 14:45
I'll generalize here a bit. Building off of the above posts. Good posts guys.
Part throttle all kinds of factors weigh in.
But LSR and drag racing we are mostly concerned with 100% throttle.
Available burn time (rpm)
Charge motion (mostly part throttle conditions, also across the board thou)
Volumetric efficiency (wave tuning related)
Compression ratio (across the board)
Charge motion is the kinetic energy of the homogenized air fuel charge. Without it you can only have low compression engines like the typical early engines of 100 years ago when 8 to 1 was a high compression ratio.
Without charge motion you have very poor homogenization and during the latter half of the compression stroke the temperature and pressure in the far corners of the chamber cause the charge to spontaneously com-bust well before the desired ignition point. So these low compression low rpm low mixture motion engines needed lots of ignition timing but were susceptible to detonation and didn't make much power. They built cylinder pressure very slowly.
At some point they discovered that having a squish band or pad allowed the piston to induce rapid charge motion late in the compression stroke. This was a milestone and ignition advance timing numbers dropped and power went up. Total mixture burn time was reduced so cylinder pressure rose faster and required less timing advance.
Then it was discovered that you could also induce motion during the induction stroke and that once you put the air fuel charge in motion it stayed in motion in the chamber even after the valves were shut and the piston was rising. Again power went up and mixture burn time was reduced so cylinder pressure rose faster and required less timing advance.
As Doug said you don't want to be trying to compress a burning charge.
Think of it this way. If you had a coffee can sitting on the ground with 1/2" of gas in it and lit it there would be a lazy black flame coming out of the can. it would sit there and burn for 10 min or so until it finally exhausted the fuel supply. Now if you ran up to that can and kicked it like a football it would rapidly accelerate the burn. You have just introduced kinetic energy into the burn.
So bottom line, the more kinetic energy in the chamber the faster the burn rate and the faster it builds cylinder pressure so the less ignition advance timing needed.
Things that effect the amount of kinetic energy are mostly chamber and port design, these are static. Dynamic things that effect kinetic energy are throttle position, engine temperature, and the fuels ability to vaporize etc.
Throttle position is the biggie.
At idle there is almost no air and fuel going into the cylinder and there is almost no mixture motion but because the amount of air and fuel is so small it doesn't meed much timing advance. As you open the throttle it becomes a balancing act between mixture motion and time available to complete the burn (rpm). Its very hard to make perfect part throttle timing maps. Its very time consuming and expensive on a dyno. It can take days.
So lets talk about 100% throttle openings because that's what 90% of us are really interested in, with the exception of road racers. Sorry Tim. 
At 100% throttle at 3000 rpm the engine has all the air and fuel it can possibly want. The kinetic energy is mostly dependent on the piston speed and how fast it can lower the pressure in the cylinder. Piston speed is low rpm is low. This is probably the most dangerous scenario. The engine is very susceptible to detonation in this scenario. The time available for the engine to evaporate the fuel is high and the possibility to overheat the charge and allow it to spontaneously com-bust before the desired ignition timing is highest. We don't ride around like this. Typically if we wanted to accelerate that badly we would downshift. The factory usually builds quite a safety margin in the timing map in this area. Some bad fuel will rear its ugly head fast in this scenario.
At 100% throttle available burn time (rpm) pretty much takes over after 3000-4000 rpms. (generally speaking) Its the highest weighted factor.
Peak Volumetric Efficiency is at peak torque. On a zx12r this is a big torque spike at about 7,600 rpm. We've all seen it on the dyno. VE can exceed 100% on most V8 engines and greatly exceeds 100% on these types of engines. In this scenario the engine has tremendous mixture motion and the tuning of the ports and exhaust pipes are all working perfect. (for that moment in time) The trapped volume in the cylinder can be 120% of the cylinder/chamber combined volume and dynamic compression is at its highest.
Now look at the picture below. This is the actual ignition advance map in the factory ZX12r ECU.
This is NOT a Power Commander map.
Look at how they threw ignition timing at the rpm where the typical zx12r torque sag is just before peak torque. 14.1% - 18.6% throttle 5600 - 6400 rpm. The cylinder filling is poor there due to the wave tuning being out of phase with the intake valve closing.
Because the trapped volume VE is reduced it needs more ignition timing.
Notice how the 100% throttle timing advance ramps up rather quickly up to about 3,600 rpms and then flattens out. A truly optimal timing map will keep throwing a 2-3 degrees or so for every 1000 rpm once you are above peak VE which is at about 7600 rpms on this engine. The factory has to be conservative because they know you may be running hot in traffic and have poor quality fuel and they have to warranty it.
I'm reluctant to post this but....
Here's how I set the 80% and 100% throttle timing on the dyno.
Go in small 2-3 degree steps. Like Doug said, these engines are quite forgiving but they do have a tolerance limit.
Get the engine and oil up to temp. You have to try and control the test conditions as much as possible. Do several WOT pulls until they overlay the same. Conditions should be stabilized then.
That last pull is your reference pull and all pulls will be compared to THAT pull.
Add 3 degrees to the whole 80% and 100% throttle map.
Do a pull and compare to the first pull.
Where you see a HP improvement the engine liked the timing so leave the added 3 degrees in the map at those RPMs. If you see a HP loss then remove the timing at those RPM's only.
Watch the Air fuel ratio. As you add timing it may lean out so you may need to add fuel to some areas of the fuel map. Stay on the rich side at say 12.4 A/F ratio. I know the dyno operator is going to tell you 12.8 or 13.2 is better for power but stay closer to 12.4
Add another 2 degrees to all the rpms that showed a HP gain from the 3 you added the first time.
Do another pull. Again if you see a HP improvement then leave the timing in at those rpms. If you see a hp loss or no gain remove the 2 degrees you just added.
Repeat this and you will see that you will start to only see power gains further and further up in RPM's.
This may take 3-5 pulls adding 2 degrees each time to the map at the rpms where it liked the previous 2 degrees.
Eventually it wont make any more power even at the highest rpms by adding 2 degrees.
Remember any time the engine doesn't make any more power from adding timing then REMOVE the timing from that rpm cell at 100% throttle.
There's no reason to leave timing that doesn't add power to the engine. Leaving that useless timing in is just reducing the safety zone.
This procedure will make an 80% and 100% throttle optimized timing map FOR THAT ENGINE AND THAT FUEL ONLY !!!
If you change cam timing, or fuel it may not be optimal any longer.
I recommend after you finish the 80% and 100% throttle column on the map to take 1 or 2 degrees out of the entire 80% and 100% throttle column on the map to increase the safety buffer. It may cost you a couple of HP but may save your engine if you get a bad batch of fuel.
Again, this is how I make an 80% and 100% throttle map on the dyno.
Be careful, add timing in small steps and WATCH that A/F ratio as you make timing changes.
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Y2KZX12R
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WRECKSHOP
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posted September 02, 2009 07:24 AM
Where and how did you get a copy of this Factory Ignition map from ?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 02, 2009 07:43 AM
Pulled it from my ECU.
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Y2KZX12R
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ZRXDean
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posted September 02, 2009 08:38 AM
EXCELLENT info Jim, thanks very much for taking the time to put together that post.
Right now I'm pulling 6 degrees from 6500 to redline, but I'm thinking to put it back after 10K. (turbo ZX10 LSR). I wish I could see the stock timing map.
Dean
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KZScott
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posted September 02, 2009 08:58 AM
thats awesome! copy n paste 
Jim, are you able to modify the ecus timing and fuel maps or just view them?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
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posted September 02, 2009 10:07 AM
ECU's for ZX-12's, Busas (Gen1 and Gen2), and GSX-R1000K5-6 have been hacked. All fuel, ignition, limiter and top speed maps are available for editing.
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KZScott
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posted September 02, 2009 10:14 AM
not to everybody though... I need mine edited
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
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posted September 02, 2009 10:21 AM
Yes, to everybody: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=1
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 02, 2009 10:27 AM
Dean, on nitrous and turbo applications the fine line becomes a razors edge. Be very careful. Nitrous and turbo applications build heat over time (heat soak) faster than N/A engines.
So holding a turbo bike at peak power for 10 seconds will heat the head and valves faster. So what is ok and doesn't detonate while holding at peak power for 3 seconds on a dyno may have issues after putting out peak power for 20 seconds as the parts heatsoak.
So you may find more safe reliable power by advancing the timing, just be careful.
I think I'd be running a pizo and data logging it on anything turbo if it were my bike. I'd advance the timing at the track and look at the data from the pizo.
Scott, I can change ignition timing on each cylinder independently. Ant the stock ECU has two complete switchable sets of maps for timing fuel etc. so you can map for two different fuels or boost levels, or nitrous shots etc.
I can also change the target air fuel ratios for each cylinder as well as change the volumetric efficiency tables for each cylinder.
Also you can change the injector and fuel pump voltage skews in case your battery gets low so you don't lean out and damage the engine.
You can change the water temp sensor compensation as well as the intake air temp compensation.
The really cool thing is the ability to change the MAP sensor compensation.
I'm working on a new ram-air system with a friend. We will be able to change the compensation rate based on ram recovery pressure. Very cool.
I think I can adjust the injector timing offset based on rpm and gear selection. I'm not sure on that table yet.
The rpm rev limiter can be changed also. There's fuel cutout and ignition cutout. you can cut spark and or fuel on each cylinder individually so you have a "soft" tip in on the limiters.
In all the zx12r factory ecu has 87 changeable maps in the ecu. Many of which I'm not sure what they are or do.
You can get yourself in a heap of trouble fast.
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ZRXDean
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posted September 02, 2009 10:38 AM
Thanks Jim. Maybe I'll just leave it retarded and keep my distance from that razor's edge.
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entropy
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posted September 02, 2009 11:19 PM
Jim,
GREAT posts, GREAT.
This thread is a keeper!!! 
You really didn't mention how CR comes into play wrt ign adv.
Your motor is a bit lower CR than mine, but other wise very similar.
Would my slightly higher CR be looking at more or less adv at high rpm?
BTW: I got yr phmail and will call Marren this morning. Thanks for making it happen.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 03, 2009 04:01 AM
quote:
You really didn't mention how CR comes into play wrt ign adv.
Yea, I was running late and had to run.
Compression increases make the pressure rise curve steeper. To a point and then at some point all it does is cost HP due to the increase in the added power needed for the compression stroke exceeding the gain in pressure rise.
If the pressure rise is faster than the swept volume increase rate then you are transferring power to the crankshaft. If not then the pressure rise is "chasing" the increase in swept volume. This is where software like Dynomation and EAP are very useful for mapping the two curves so you can see visually where the sweet spot is.
As you raise the compression of an engine (typically) the exhaust gas temps drop due to faster pressure rise in the cylinder so more combustion happens sooner and more work is done before the EVO event. This is why quite often the cylinder head temps are higher with more compression even thou the same total BTUs are going threw the engine.
So an engine with more compression, in theory, may need slightly less ignition timing advance. Again the only real way to know is dyno the engine. The dome on the piston can play a big role in the optimum timing that the engine likes. Generally domes on pistons are bad. The flame has to travel up and over the mountain instead of across the planes. So the distance the flame front has to travel is longer thus requiring more ignition advance.
But we aren't talking about your little flat dome Karl. Were talking about those old wedge head domes that are 3/4" tall and pointy. Another drawback to a big dome like that it they KILL chamber motion. Yet another drawback and need for more timing advance.
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Y2KZX12R
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BrooklynNYZX12
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posted September 03, 2009 04:12 AM
I'm sure all of us have read many articles in regards to ignition timing this is a post on a motorcycle bulletin board that has explained alot in laymens terms,thanks for all the tips Doug,JIM (Y2K),TCCHIN and always Entropy. Great info all the time guys.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 03, 2009 04:16 AM
quote:
I'm sure all of us have read many articles in regards to ignition timing this is a post on a motorcycle bulletin board that has explained alot in laymens terms,thanks for all the tips Doug,JIM (Y2K),TCCHIN and always Entropy. Great info all the time guys.
I was just elaborating on what Doug had said.
One understatement that you guys may have missed. Doug hit the nail on the head with "operator budget".
For road racers like Tim its a huge task of time and money to try and make the optimum part throttle ignition maps. Its hard to duplicate the conditions of a road course and make timing changes and repeat the test with enough accuracy to qualify the result as accurate.
You need a consistent well thought out procedure on the dyno. And then send the rider out and get his feed back and tweak it more.
Drag racers and LSR guys have it easy.
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Y2KZX12R
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tcchin
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posted September 03, 2009 11:53 AM
quote:
For road racers like Tim its a huge task of time and money to try and make the optimum part throttle ignition maps. Its hard to duplicate the conditions of a road course and make timing changes and repeat the test with enough accuracy to qualify the result as accurate.
You need a consistent well thought out procedure on the dyno. And then send the rider out and get his feed back and tweak it more.
Exactly! This is precisely where we are now with our new high-output CCNC motor. The balance between outright power and controllability is particularly important on corner exits, when the rider transitions from trailing or neutral throttle to WFO. Go too conservative and the bike will have no drive; too aggressive and the throttle will be so sensitive that it becomes difficult to stay in the seat. And throttle control is affected by ignition timing, fuel mixture, cam timing/profile and chassis/suspension setup, making for an interesting guessing game on occasion.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 04, 2009 04:36 AM
Tim, have you guys have bike dialed in now? Whats the riders overall impression of the new inflection ported head? Did his lap times improve? Where in the power band are the most noticeable improvements?
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Y2KZX12R
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tcchin
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posted September 04, 2009 07:38 AM
We're still fine-tuning, but the power seems to be up everywhere with no apparent deficiencies. The motor will pull happily up to the new 14.3k redline and drives off corners like a violated primate. And that's with the stock-lift intake cam! We haven't been on a track where we have laptime data yet, but we should know soon (9/19 is our next WSMC race weekend).
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NINJA12
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posted September 04, 2009 09:32 AM
quote:
Yes, to everybody: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=1
Can you narrow it down to the zx12 editing thread.
Maybe I'm overlooking it.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 04, 2009 09:49 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 4 Sep 2009 17:52
Try this...
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=99460&subForumID=315286&p=2
If your looking for a "how to" on editing there really isn't much. You are basically changing cells like in a power commander.
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entropy
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posted September 06, 2009 01:00 AM
Edited By: entropy on 6 Sep 2009 09:01
ign adv experiment results:
did a couple of full sets of pulls today:
adv at 8 @ 10K;
went to 10, it leaned out from 12.0 to 12.3 but hp did not incr
went to 12, it didn't lean out, hp dropped 1.5 of so
went back to 8
this test was CL's at 102/102 from 105/105, unfortunately to get 102/102 (sinking valves), CR dropped from 15.6 to 15.2
normally (for my motor) going from 105/105 to 102/102 will incr hp 3-4 up to 10K, then it's kinda a wash
this time (w/lower CR) hp dropped 2hp everywhere: this motor likes more CR
what to do?
drop the motor, put some CR back into it, go back to 105/105, get back my LSR (10K+) hp
motor is on the bench as of 5 min ago
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted September 06, 2009 06:11 PM
Your a freak'n animal Karl, I was just about to say run it like it is. lol
Go Karl Go!
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entropy
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posted September 06, 2009 06:15 PM
quote:
Your a freak'n animal Karl, I was just about to say run it like it is. lol
Go Karl Go!
hey Gary,
It's sept, time for 2009 build #9
Andy will skim the head tues or wed, prob back at the dyno on 19th.
how is yr turbo repair going???
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 07, 2009 04:14 AM
Karl, sounds like you had the timing right where it liked it.
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entropy
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posted September 07, 2009 09:27 AM
quote:
Karl, sounds like you had the timing right where it liked it.
Jim,
yep, apparently.
i had hopes 
but it was interesting to see adv/AF/hp react exactly as you predicted.
you are a might smart feller!!
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dougmeyer
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posted September 07, 2009 03:07 PM
You going to run it again after re-configuring it to the 1/5 combination?
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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