almost_les
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Posts: 590
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posted May 30, 2009 08:41 PM
12r clutch vs r6 clutch
not much of a size difference:
BTW 2.0mm is the standard steel size on an r6.
  
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Shane661
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posted May 31, 2009 02:25 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 31 May 2009 10:27
14 vs. 12R:
Steel's diameter:
Steel's thickness...and this is a 2mm ZX-12 plate:
Frictions:
I wonder which one holds up better? 
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almost_les
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posted May 31, 2009 12:08 PM
damn, thats quite an improvement they made
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NOX
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posted June 01, 2009 02:38 PM
Look at the friction area.........
These clutch threads are funny.......
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Shane661
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posted June 01, 2009 05:16 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 01:18
quote:
Look at the friction area.........
These clutch threads are funny.......
To imply that the 12R clutch is even remotely as stout as the 14's...well, that is the real joke!
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almost_les
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posted June 01, 2009 05:24 PM
Edited By: almost_les on 2 Jun 2009 01:27
even if the friction area is the same, the 12r clutch has all the little pucks packed close together, whereas the 14 has them further apart with more metal in between to soak up heat. you could shrink it down even further and have no area between the clutch fibers (one big fiber all the way around) but how tolerant would it be to heat spikes from lanching? bigger plates= more mass to soak up heat.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 05:57 AM
Yes, it does soak up more heat, but no one who is real serious goes out and hot laps the crap out of a bike they are trying to do something serious with......
Hot lap anything, and the clutches will go, busa, 14, 600, 1000, whatever......
part of the 14s better set up is its first gear........., its lower than the 12 , but hey, what would I know eh?
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 06:13 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 14:14
quote:
Yes, it does soak up more heat, but no one who is real serious goes out and hot laps the crap out of a bike they are trying to do something serious with......
Hot lap anything, and the clutches will go, busa, 14, 600, 1000, whatever......
part of the 14s better set up is its first gear........., its lower than the 12 , but hey, what would I know eh?
The 14 transmission is also way, way better than the one in the 12...even after you put $1k in a 12 trans.
Face it, Nox. Not many people are going to side with you about the 12 clutch compared to the 14.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 06:32 AM
I know, and the tranny is a better one......
I will not argue that. The clutch is slightly better, but its not that much better......
It is only better for guys who don't know what they are doing........., but i see goons fry the 14 clutches too........
these arguments go on forever......., look at the 10s and the 1000s, their clutches are not inferior, but take off in second all the time, and you would fry clutches too, gear affects everything......
there is a right way, and a wrong way is all I am saying.......
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 06:56 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 15:03
Well, I fried a clutch from ridiculous hot lapping on the 14. I guess an open track day with 25+ passes can lead to that...so I guess I'm a goon.
I've heard of some "goons" running 9's on 68" bikes too! Where do they find these guys?
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 07:09 AM
quote:
quote:
Yes, it does soak up more heat, but no one who is real serious goes out and hot laps the crap out of a bike they are trying to do something serious with......
I hate to tell you this...but unless you have quit your day job, it is a hobby.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:24 AM
quote:
Well, I fried a clutch from ridiculous hot lapping on the 14. I guess an open track day with 25+ passes can lead to that...so I guess I'm a goon.
I've heard of some "goons" running 9's on 68" bikes too! Where do they find these guys?
Yeah, 25 passes will do it........., thats the stuff I am talking about.......
Yeah, I run 9s, LOL Ran a 9.38 with 9 degrees timing out of my normal set up.........LOL
With no map in the PC, , at over 1000 ft above sea level , before factoring in the air......
Ask Joe, its a little harder to hit the number at elevation, instead of running at sea level.
But, you just made my point, guys still fry clutches in the 14s as well.......
They are not bombproof.......
The muzzy clutch for the 12 is not bombproof.
The 12 clutch is not bombproof.......
Most issues on bikes, mine, yours, etc, is usually our fault for doing something wrong........
I used a bad tire guage for three weeks......., fought a stock shock for WAY too long........
But I don't eat clutch fibers up, even on runs that go into the 3.7s in 330.........
And, unless you are only running heads up, in a no lock up class like Real Street, if you cant make it though a day of racing on a clutch pack, what good does it do you.......
Yes its a hobby......., some are more serious at thier hobbies than others.......
I was not trying to pick a fight with ya, just talkin bro........
____________
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 07:30 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 15:34
Hey, I'm not picking a fight either.
It's just all relative, you know. Most people hand clutch it. Especially on short bikes I think the 14 clutch will way outlast the 12's. There is a lot of slipping the clutch on the shorter bikes. You can just look at the design and see the 14 clutch will handle it better.
For your setup, with a lock up, and limited passes...I'm sure it works fine.
I agree, we cause our own problems most of the time. I was a fool to run so many back-to-back passes. I was trying to get used to some new clutch springs and gearing, and couldn't get it...and made a few too many passes in the process.
Shane
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:40 AM
Yes, and with the 14, just like the busa, the hydraulic clutch gives a larger margin of error........
you have to be a little bit better of a clutch hand to run a cable clutch like guys on a hydraulic clutch do....., there are some tricks that can be done in the hydrulic clutches and stuff.......
and their lock up tuning is very different.........
but when they are both set up right, they will both work very well...........
I think Joe will attest to that......., he has seen my bike, and a bike I tune the clutch in work at three different races this year, and he will tell you, I do know what I am doing......., the other bike is a busa, 63 inches, -1 +5, drops the hammer at 7000, never wheelies. We just did a 62 inch 12 that way last weekend, -1 +2, drops the hammer at 7000, smooth as glass. Oh, and I have about 300 passes on this clutch pack. Specs have not changed, niether has the other bike I travel with.
I just wish I had the time to do some playing around for speed. I have all my money tied up in travel and a 87 to 90 mph Jr. Dragster this year. All of my events I attend are 4 to 5.5 hours away.......
(yes Karl, I know, your company approves) LOL
You guys be safe.........
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 07:43 AM
I personally prefer cable clutches...at least for the feel. That is one area I like the 12R setup better. Even though it may not affect my ET, the hydraulic is just a little vague, for me.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:44 AM
Yes, and as the clutch got so hot on you, you really learned nothing, as it got so hot, it acted different, and you also, did not have time to sit back, and analyze what was happening.......
I have tried soooo hard to knock down killer 60 ft times that the shock set up to do it, lost all of it on the top due to wheel spin on the less than stellar track I test on..........
Then when I watch the data, the shock only moved a little, it shot out like a cannon, then spun like a big dog.......LOL
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:47 AM
quote:
I personally prefer cable clutches...at least for the feel. That is one area I like the 12R setup better. Even though it may not affect my ET, the hydraulic is just a little vague, for me.
I totally agree..........
I think it makes tuning the lock up easier as well........, less area for error, yes....., but, for several reasons, I like it much better...........
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:49 AM
OH, and for nothing else.......
The pusher system on the 14 is WAY better than the freakin pull rod on the 12..........
For several other reasons..........., other than just that stupid stock rod breaking..........
And that is gospel..........LOL
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 07:56 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 15:57
quote:
Yes, and as the clutch got so hot on you, you really learned nothing, as it got so hot, it acted different, and you also, did not have time to sit back, and analyze what was happening.......
I've definitely found that the more goal oriented I get, the less passes I make. I often say..."there is no sense in beating on the bike". If it is not doing what you want, you need to stop and think and analyze your data...whether it is the slips, video, pics, or whatever.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 07:57 AM
Edited By: NOX on 2 Jun 2009 15:59
Exactly.
I tell people all the time........
The bike will tell you what it wants.......
If its spinnin on the top, it wants the rebound slowed, if it bogs at 60 ft, it wants a clutch adjustment...., if it spins on the line, it needs one of several things, and all of them could fix it.......
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almost_les
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posted June 02, 2009 03:12 PM
hot lapping? you mean like when me and by buddies slick'n'bar zx10r run about 8 passes back to back? straight from the return to the lights. this is on top of the actual racing going on. gotta love those quick nights where the track is trying to find ways to kill time. especially since we run almost exactly the same times. makes for some fun heads up
i think i'm gonna have to talk to you once my bike is done and i get my muzzy locker in. right now its back to SWB. plans include dropping and shortening the forks, keeping the rear slammed and cutting the tank. shooting for the quickest swb bike at the track. considering even ditching the tank all together and throwing a fuel cell in the tail. should look pretty ridiculous when its done.
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NOX
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posted June 02, 2009 03:21 PM
if you have a ton of clutch pressure, hot lapping is okay, so much as your oil does not turn to water, etc........
the muzzys are okay, but I would get rid of it, and get a multi, or at least a mtc two stage.......
the muzzy pull rod is junk, and we had some made, but my father in law who made them no longer does......, and he does not want to mess with any more.......
But, the muzzy works just the same, just a ton less reliable if you pop that freakin button off , and I have done it several times......., even with never pulling the lever on the big end. It is machined wrong, and to my knowledge, they never fixed it.........
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almost_les
Zone Head
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posted June 03, 2009 10:19 AM
sounds like i would be better off hand clutching it than using a muzzy locker.
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NOX
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posted June 03, 2009 03:26 PM
If you have a good copy of the pull rod made, you will be fine, it is a exact copy of the MTC, just the rod is the problem.
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Stuart Racing
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posted June 03, 2009 05:04 PM
I had one made and it`s STILL in my bike....The guy did an excellant job, hardened it,and some other stuff....3 years of drag racing, street riding with a lockup....Not cheap to makre but worth it....
Oh NOX, Mark just sent my trans. and I got it today.....WOW what a work of art....$1100 of art....Gonna shift like butta now,lol....
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Life in the Fast Lane..........
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