KZScott
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posted March 30, 2009 12:56 PM
ping Y2K/ nitrous fans
Hey Jim, and all board members. just wanted to get a final discussion going before i send my head down to Competiton CNC
quick recap:
1287cc @ 13.5:1cr, stock head with light clean up/port match done by me, 2 inlet cams, adjustable sprockets.
goal:
to be able to run 120hp of nitrous in lsr events with proper tuning/fuel. ill probly go with 60-80 for lsr and 100 for drag, but i want it tough enough to be able to up the jets if i get greedy later on.
possible head combo(money is a factor):
1mm over size SS exh valves with bronze seats. wider than stock seat width on exh. stock inlet valves and seats with special Y2K "nitrous" seat cut
sound like a plan?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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Shane661
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posted March 30, 2009 01:34 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 30 Mar 2009 21:52
Scott, I don't think too many people have had success in LSR with a big shot on a 1287. The bore spacing is really tight, as you know. I'm not saying that you can't, just that I haven't heard too many (any?) "long term" success stories with big spray and large bores on the 12R.
I think the most successful LSR nitrous 12 has been Jim Owen's bike, and it was stock bore. He was also spraying whole a lot and using nitrous pistons, afaik. I don't think he had an elaborate cylinder head...but Vincent would know a lot more about that.
I would stay on the conservative side., and optimize your setup as opposed to shooting for big numbers.
Anyway, you asked for feedback, so there it is. You know I am also inclined to lean towards conservative, so this should come as no surprise.
Shane
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted March 30, 2009 01:42 PM
Same here.
I always heard head gasket problems with 1287 and big spray.
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osti33
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Posts: 2973
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posted March 30, 2009 01:47 PM
Scott,
As far as the head is concerned I would go with whatever Jim recommends. Tell him what your goals are and let him tell you what he would reccomend. Keeping your budget in mind obvoiusly. He won't lead you down the wrong path.
Last week in the Texas Mile thread you asked if I was running a custom radiator. I am not. It is 100% stock. Cap and all. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I have been gone since last Wednesday.
Ryan
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 30, 2009 02:15 PM
i agree a 1287 isnt the best choice for big shots of nitrous, but its what i have. from talking to a guy that used to run the mile (with a 1287 and 120 shot) his problems were in the valve train not head gasket. i think that if i have a better designed setup to combat heat it will survive. ill be lapping the block and head so i think the thin(between the bores) headgasket will be ok. ill be using the surface discharge plugs for lsr aswell. ill start out with 60-80 for lsr, but im going with 100 for drag(only 10 more than last yr and this yr ill be running c16 in the wet kit vs all pump gas)
another reason i think the HG will be ok is the fact that Chris Lovett was running a SBM1320 with i think around 100 shot in the 1/4.(8.41@170)
thx Ryan, I thought it looked "short" . srry to hear about your motor trouble 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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Posts: 6520
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posted March 30, 2009 02:19 PM
That is a LOT of compression! Would you still be using that much if it was a turbo? I think not! When you are spraying a lot it is the same as a turbo for the cylinder pressures and heat! Because of the heat most people do not use thin walls and High compression and then want to spray a BIG Shot! I run about 10.25 to 1 and make close to 170 SAE HP on a conservative Dyno stock everything and spray between 100 to 200 SHot of NOS. I did not have any problems until "I" Did not match the NOS and Fuel pressure correclty (Read did nothing to the fuel because I forgot to!)
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 30, 2009 02:22 PM
Chris's 1320 was 14.5:1 CR
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
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posted March 30, 2009 02:53 PM
Scott - I understood Chris used a stroked crank in his bike.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 30, 2009 03:00 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 30 Mar 2009 23:03
pretty sure one season was without the stroker
i think it went like this(3 seasons). 60 shot stock motor, 100ish shot 1320, 1436
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted March 30, 2009 04:36 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 31 Mar 2009 00:45
A 1/4 mile pass is 9 seconds, and a 200 mph LSR run can be 25...that would be 33 or more seconds at Loring. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted March 30, 2009 07:07 PM
KZ get an egt gauge it's fun! I had a little bad luck at the Texas Mile this last weekend. I had my Muzzy adjustable timing rotor bolts back out this weekend just past the 3/4 mile maker on friday, coasted through the traps at 198.8xx. Had baseball games on sat with the kids and ran sunday. I think my adjustable sprocket bolts might have backed out on my last run. It knocked the side valve cover gasket out and sprayed oil all over me and the bike. This was right past the 1/2 Mile maker and close to the 3/4 maker. I'll pull the plastic tommorrow and take a little look under the valve cover and pull the rotor cover to see if my cam chain is hanging out around there.
I was running a 70 shot on the motor ( N/A 220HP on C-16, N2O around 290HP) My first run recorded an egt high temp spike of 1490F (ouch) I only saw 1340 on the gauge took my eyes off for a second to look at the tach and back again when the rotor went an I saw the red back screen of the EGT temp gauge flashing. I thought I had toasted my valves again. I pullled the clutch in and coasted. It took a while to get back to the pits where the motor was rolled over with TFA motor guys, including Cheese, were around for diagnosis. After it was fixed on Sunday Johnny raised the fuel thanks to ZXAllens laptop. EGT ran a little cooler. I was able to get in and out of the Juice when I saw high egt levels. KZ any advice I can give you watch your timing, don't take too much out, I personally made that mistake already. A ZX-12 motor is a different beast. In my idiots opinion for your set up don't run more than an 80 shot for LSR, use good fuel, don't go crazy on the timing retard, have someway of maybe viewing EGT's while running, good luck.
Very interesting but not about N2O. I was yaking with a real fast turbo fella about egt's and he was telling me his reachs around 1600F, perty crazy. He said he had lost exhaust valves once in the past. But a real fat turbo Busa is a different beast than an N2O ZX-12. The extra fuel was being burned right out the exhaust.
I doubt that my babbling has helped much,
Gary
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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KZScott
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posted March 30, 2009 07:20 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 31 Mar 2009 03:24
your input is allways welcome Gary, first hand expirience goes a long way. srry to hear about the damage, do you know if lock tight was used on your bolts?
i would like to get an EGT gauge, but thats more electronics and more money....
question for everyone: how much of the run(lsr) is normally done in the top 3 gears, and top 2 gears?
im curious also if you would get better gains by going with a small shot for the duration of the run or a big one at the end of the run, and which would build more heat? im leaning towards big shot in 5th and 6th based on some drag strip stuff i tried
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted March 30, 2009 07:59 PM
sounds like its gona be a beast 
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted March 30, 2009 10:42 PM
quote:
question for everyone: how much of the run(lsr) is normally done in the top 3 gears, and top 2 gears?
Scott, here is an old log from a pass at Texas. This into a stiff headwind with stock motor NA (slow) with gearing too tall (18/46)
15 sec to get through the first 4 gears, then another 15 in 5th and 6th
I like to spray gears 4-6. Spraying sooner would hurt more than it would help if you dont have a large bottle. You need good bottle pressure all the way through 6th.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 30, 2009 11:38 PM
THATS a good log! thank you for posting it!
im getting a 5 pounder, and i can allways "T" the 2 pounder into it if i need to, but i think i may just spray in 5th and 6th to help keep things cool, especially with the extra half a mile and all. but, if i do decide to log EGT, and things are still ok at the end, maybe ill try another gear and see what happens
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted March 31, 2009 05:36 AM
Yep, lock tight (100% positive) was used, but not welded like some do. For some reason my bike seems to resonate bolts loose. I hear you on the extra electronics and money. I switched gears a little and have gone to the smaller shot and stabbing the button for just a touch in lower gears. EGT temps drop fast when you get off the juice, but climb much faster each time you get back into it. After about 5 seconds on the juice things start to warm up. lol
I'll see soon if the bolts backed out or if the cam chain just snapped.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted March 31, 2009 02:33 PM
quote:
Hey Jim, and all board members. just wanted to get a final discussion going before i send my head down to Competiton CNC
quick recap:
1287cc @ 13.5:1cr, stock head with light clean up/port match done by me, 2 inlet cams, adjustable sprockets.
goal:
to be able to run 120hp of nitrous in lsr events with proper tuning/fuel. ill probly go with 60-80 for lsr and 100 for drag, but i want it tough enough to be able to up the jets if i get greedy later on.
possible head combo(money is a factor):
1mm over size SS exh valves with bronze seats. wider than stock seat width on exh. stock inlet valves and seats with special Y2K "nitrous" seat cut
sound like a plan?
Can I talk you into stainless intake valves? 
It would be interesting to see what the actual head temps get up to spraying in long durations.
It might be prety scarry to see what temp the aluminum between the cylinders gets up to during a long redline nitrous run.
Thats why these things are so brutal on head gaskets. If everything isnt just right then.....
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted March 31, 2009 06:15 PM
hey rgeorge, what kinda data logging are you running that can map that out for you?
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
shiphteey
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Posts: 2529
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posted March 31, 2009 06:58 PM
My 2 cents Scott: You are going to blow up your motor with a big shot and lots of real estate....ESPECIALLY AT LORING. Its too much nitrous for too long without a real nitrous set-up. I would highly recommend you spray very small and work your way up. You can always go with a bigger jet every pass...but blow it up on your first run and just about everyone on here will be biting their tongue to not say:
"I told you so"
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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shiphteey
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posted March 31, 2009 07:00 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 1 Apr 2009 03:01
I sprayed a 30ish-40 shot from 3rd gear on up, run was about 25 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0UZ74OJmHc&feature=channel_page
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 31, 2009 09:00 PM
quote:
quote:
Hey Jim, and all board members. just wanted to get a final discussion going before i send my head down to Competiton CNC
quick recap:
1287cc @ 13.5:1cr, stock head with light clean up/port match done by me, 2 inlet cams, adjustable sprockets.
goal:
to be able to run 120hp of nitrous in lsr events with proper tuning/fuel. ill probly go with 60-80 for lsr and 100 for drag, but i want it tough enough to be able to up the jets if i get greedy later on.
possible head combo(money is a factor):
1mm over size SS exh valves with bronze seats. wider than stock seat width on exh. stock inlet valves and seats with special Y2K "nitrous" seat cut
sound like a plan?
Can I talk you into stainless intake valves?
It would be interesting to see what the actual head temps get up to spraying in long durations.
It might be prety scarry to see what temp the aluminum between the cylinders gets up to during a long redline nitrous run.
Thats why these things are so brutal on head gaskets. If everything isnt just right then.....
can you email me on the break down of what everything costs if you have some spare time? s_u_fire@hotmail.com
the reason im not convinced to spend money on the SS in valves, is because the nitrous is so cold. i just cant see them getting as hot(i could be wrong?)
IF i got them, would it be much extra work or cost to go 1mm oversize? would it even be worth it on my setup?
last i checked the other day our dollar was worth .75 to you, so thats hurting my build plans
i was reading about different thermocouples. aparently you can make one to fit under a spark plug(under the gasket) i bet the log file would be interesting from that! im leaning towards getting rid of my LMA-2 for an LMA-3 for my LM-1 so i can at least log EGT from 1 cylinder....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 01, 2009 03:46 AM
True the intake valve is not as hot as the exhaust. The charge flowing past the valve does help cool it.
If you go with the 1mm o/s intakes you would need bronze seats as well. When we open the seat throat under the valve to 89% and go 1mm o/s there isnt much radial tension left to hold the seats in. With nitrous this can become even more of a problem.
I dont think you need o/s intakes.
quote:
i was reading about different thermocouples. aparently you can make one to fit under a spark plug(under the gasket) i bet the log file would be interesting from that! im leaning towards getting rid of my LMA-2 for an LMA-3 for my LM-1 so i can at least log EGT from 1 cylinder....
That would be interesting to see.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted April 01, 2009 04:52 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 1 Apr 2009 12:54
quote:
True the intake valve is not as hot as the exhaust. The charge flowing past the valve does help cool it..
Since intake temperatures on spray can be sub-freezing, and exhaust gas temps over 1400 degrees, I have a question. What is the typical temperature delta between intake and exhaust valve temperatures, while spraying nitrous?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 01, 2009 08:42 AM
Thats a good question... ??
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted April 01, 2009 09:37 AM
Ok thanks Jim, i gotta run and make maple syrup, what would be a good time to call you this week?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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