NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted March 06, 2009 03:04 PM
Funny, so much good info has been given and folks can't read between the lines.........., and if its going fast, couldn't it go faster, .........., unless you are happy where you are........
the purpose of a lock up is to throw the lever, and be super consistent........, and make the rpms go damn near to red line the whole way out of the whole, and never drop........
Why on earth would you still hand clutch if you have a lock up. Set that bad boy up, and get agressive......, you can throw the lever at short wb, even at high rpm, all dang day........, if you know what to do........
Shane, that was cute......., I like that........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
  
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 06, 2009 03:09 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Mar 2009 23:17
Nox,
I think it was you who told me that this type of lock up was not the greatest on the 14 (for drag)?
Are you saying this clutch can be tuned to throw the lever? I bought it to hold the nitrous without using heavy springs; but if the ability is there I may want to explore it later in the season.
Shane
|
kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
|
posted March 06, 2009 03:17 PM
Nox, it just seems to me that most of us use our streetbikes to dragrace and that kind of tune wouldnt work on the roads so good. Is this thinking wrong?
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted March 06, 2009 03:58 PM
on my setup, i noticed that it would hold the power clicking thru the gears like you do drag racing(on the street), but if i was in 6th for example, and just putting along at the speed limit, then went WOT, it would slip for a bit, then lock in(a second or so maybe). i had roughly half of stock static spring pressure and a little bit of weight. if you change your driving habits a bit it would be fine, but IMO to run it on the street, it would be best to run stock spring pressure. leave the arms alone. its a 5 min job max once you do it a few times. when getting the bike prepped for the track its no big deal to swap in the "race setup" springs, and when you get home, swap in the "street setup" springs.
Shane, if you can get light duty springs (im running MTC soft springs) or cut down some stockers, and maybe some aluminum nuts and bolts(again Im using MTC stuff) and maybe machine some weight off the arms to be able to play with weight, you could probly tune it to throw the lever. its just not as easy as the 6/6 design that has tons of options with no machining.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
|
posted March 06, 2009 04:04 PM
quote:
Nox, it just seems to me that most of us use our streetbikes to dragrace and that kind of tune wouldnt work on the roads so good. Is this thinking wrong?
It will work but you have to downshift to at least second before hitting the throttle. Mine will slip the clutch with just throttle in 3rd gear and up. Kind of a pain when I'm trying to make a simple pass. Can be ridden on the street but not the best. These lock-up threads would be much better if they actually had some tune tips from those that know. 
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted March 06, 2009 04:20 PM
have you been reading what ive been writing?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
almost_les
Zone Head
Posts: 590
|
posted March 06, 2009 04:35 PM
Edited By: almost_les on 7 Mar 2009 00:36
lol, tips left and right, but apparently not everybody is picking them up, i'm about ready to bust out a notepad.
|
Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
|
posted March 06, 2009 05:26 PM
I ride my lockup on the street all the time....Like Scott said , just have to change your riding style a bit...More rpm`s before going wot.....But my clutch lever feels like there are ball point pen springs in it.....Real ,real light.....1.4 60`s ALL day long.....NOX tuned, leaving a 7000 rpm`s....Sometimes less is better.....(hint hint.).....Trick is, where`s less....lol....
____________
Life in the Fast Lane..........
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted March 06, 2009 10:58 PM
Single stage lock ups have tuning limits......, multis do not. 5 arm lock ups are the worst and have the most limited tuning......, but, if you know what you are doing, and know some tricks in the machine shop......, cool things can be done........, there are so many variables, I could write a book. Even the basic cable vs hydraulic has an effect. If you gain 5 lbs, it has an effect.
Everyone who has not used me, gets pissed. Guys who have, probably would have paid twice what they did, since thier bikes do what they do now, and know that, holy crap, it never would have done this before.........
And I still have the fools saying......., "you cant toss the clutch with a single stage"
WTF ever.
You want a good dyno tune, go pay someone with a dyno, or buy your own and learn to use it. You want a good clutch tune, go tune it, waste time, waste money every time you go, or call Nox, and save time, money, and go faster, more consistent, win more rounds, and have less to worry about, other than covering up your set up in the pits if you happen to make an adjustment........
I would say this, after looking at both. If you have no clue on what you are doing......, and you just want to have clutch longevity, and do not know how to really tune one, and I mean, gettin down to making minor fine changes......., that require special parts, that do not come with that cycle logic......, then buy it, because it will work a touch better than the mtc, for someone in that application. But, for what I do with one, I would not. But there is no way I would run a single in a 14. I would go gen II, gann, hays, or multi.
If you cannot read between the lines, on all the beans that scott spilled, I am sorry.
Every bike is different, and every bike needs x amount of clutch pressure. The trick is, to know what x is, given the set up, and where to start.
MTC has no clue. I have guys call them....., and tell them to take thier tune out of it, and ship it the way I have it set up, and Kevin is like........WTF, and the guy is like just ship it that way.......
It gets to him, he drops the hammer , and it works......., no way in hell it would have set up like they send it............
Paul and scott will both vouch, if you do not trust me on it, you will be off........., but you would think I am on crack with what I tell you to do......, but it works!!!!!!!!! And if you do not think that is was being done in pro bikes, you are nuts........, just now, they all have gone to the gann and gen II. Even Pro Stock Bike. BUT, pro stock bike did not gain anything with the gann clutch........., they switched for another reason entirely............, scott and paul might guess at it....., but I doubt it.........
bash on me if you want.............., I gotta get some sleep. i got two clutches to tune tomorrow....., a 64inch busa, and a 66 or 68 inch velocity turbo 1000......, fun fun.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
|
posted March 07, 2009 05:16 AM
quote:
quote:
Nox, it just seems to me that most of us use our streetbikes to dragrace and that kind of tune wouldnt work on the roads so good. Is this thinking wrong?
It will work but you have to downshift to at least second before hitting the throttle. Mine will slip the clutch with just throttle in 3rd gear and up. Kind of a pain when I'm trying to make a simple pass. Can be ridden on the street but not the best. These lock-up threads would be much better if they actually had some tune tips from those that know.
Thanks for the info Teddy, and I didnt even have to pay you to answer my question.
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 07, 2009 07:24 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Mar 2009 15:26
We have a lock up here, on the turbo busa. Stock wheelbase, 6500 rpm, the guy threw the lever. Not a lot of passes on it, but low 1.5's 60 ft. He got his setup from Kent Stotz (I'm sure you know who that is, Nox).
The funny thing is, it is setup a little different than what you might suggest (based on what I've read). I get the feeling that there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to lock ups.
It would seem that the most important things are a good baseline setup, a fundamental understanding of lock ups, and a consistent tuning procedure. And if you can't get the info elsewhere, I'd say it's worth paying for.
I think if people took their bike to Nox, they would be happy to pay him help set it up. But the idea of paying for phone calls and emails doesn't sit well with everyone. There is a lot of good, free information on these forums.
Shane
|
SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
|
posted March 07, 2009 09:44 AM
Shane I bought my lockup from Paul and he has been great helping me to get it set. I am so close to having it right. I searched all over the internet when I got it to just learn as much as I could about setup. Very little info to be found. Best information I found as far as initial setup was from a Hayabusa board from a few years ago. They recomended between 145 to 165 static spring pressure as a starting point. Tune that to get your bike to launch off the line and then tune the arms. The arms take so little weight it isn't funny and only a couple of them will do the job. This is to be able to just throw the clutch. Smokin ran the CL lockup about a year ago and is planing to get another. He went back to the stock springs and just bolted it on, but he has a great clutch hand already. He picked up about 2mph with this setup.
|
Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
|
posted March 07, 2009 11:45 AM
quote:
We have a lock up here, on the turbo busa. Stock wheelbase, 6500 rpm, the guy threw the lever. Not a lot of passes on it, but low 1.5's 60 ft. He got his setup from Kent Stotz (I'm sure you know who that is, Nox).
The funny thing is, it is setup a little different than what you might suggest (based on what I've read). I get the feeling that there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to lock ups.
It would seem that the most important things are a good baseline setup, a fundamental understanding of lock ups, and a consistent tuning procedure. And if you can't get the info elsewhere, I'd say it's worth paying for.
I think if people took their bike to Nox, they would be happy to pay him help set it up. But the idea of paying for phone calls and emails doesn't sit well with everyone. There is a lot of good, free information on these forums.
Shane
Some bikes still need clutch lever control, and just can`t throw out the lever(probably what Kent had to do)....Stock wheelbase with a turbo, lots of hp....The lockup can only do so much especially a single stage...When turbo lag kicks in they go crazy....
____________
Life in the Fast Lane..........
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 07, 2009 12:25 PM
quote:
Smokin ran the CL lockup about a year ago and is planing to get another. He went back to the stock springs and just bolted it on, but he has a great clutch hand already. He picked up about 2mph with this setup.
I would be thrilled to pick up some mph since that may give me more on top in the mile.
Shane
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted March 07, 2009 07:10 PM
the arms spin with the basket not the pressure plate?
yeah, enough beans for a meal up there lol
i will never go back to no lock up. might get a multi for 2010, but theres still a ton left in the single. doing some major upgrades to avoid wheelies and prevent bottoming out the shock. i have a rough idea of where to set it up based on last yr, but ill be running it by the dr before i take it to the track. we had some tweaks to try with the last setup i had been unaware of at the track. Nox tells me to call him from the track after i make a couple passes too... i had taken out too much static to try to avoid wheelies, when i should have went about half way. i think the quote was "2 of those shims makes the difference of coming out of the hole looking like a complete beginner and coming out looking like a clutch god" and we were talking about the thinnest ones i had! we have had some good convos over the phone, via pm and email and i have learned a lot! i would have been lost trying to set one up by myself. i even asked MTC what they would suggest for a base line setup. i gave them all the specs on the bike and me. "we dont know, sorry" pm Nox: do this that, buy this from mtc.... best short times ever first time to the track. grinning from ear to ear, still not quite believing it worked...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
|
posted March 07, 2009 10:12 PM
I have run one in my zx14 , same Ets but i do get some extra MPH with it and thats what i was looking for ...I think that is what Shane is looking for also ... Mine drives fine on the street with it ....Shane no need to touch it , just bolt it in and go .... You will see what Ninjaboy and i are talking about .. Oh i also use the stock springs ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
|
kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
|
posted March 08, 2009 08:59 AM
Edited By: kawasakijockey on 8 Mar 2009 17:13
Shane, I tried the CL out last night with stock springs, 64inch wb, 16/44, 230lbs suited. This was the first time to try it with my prefered gearing(16/44). Without lockup this setup gave me 1.47-1.48 60fts. with pretty much no wheel lift or maybe an inch. This is with a 4500rpm launch and wide open at about 50 ft out.
With the lockup and this gearing the clutch gets aggressive sooner than I'd hoped for but it is predictable about wheel lift. Problem is the wheel comes up a foot and climbing fast at maybe 20 ft out and there is no way to roll the throtle past 70% before the 60ft mark. My 60ft times were 1.50-1.52. If I wasnt trying to see what worked to get it to the 330 the best the 1000+ spectator crowd would have loved to see the wheel carries all night.
We had absolutely terrible air and a 16mph direct head wind gusting 20. In good conditions the problem would have worsened because of more power added. Truth is the track map was too rich for the air. The street map would have been more agressive.
So I have to "tune" my set up somehow. First and easiest for me to try is the 43t rear then go about taking weight off the lockup bolt heads. Removing the bolts completely might not be aggressive enough for me at the rpm I need to be at 100% throttle. All I can do is try one thing at a time. 1) remove all the weights, 2) gear it 16/43 with weights, 3) lighten up weights with 16/43.
All I need is more wheelbase and the lockup would be great as it is. I have decided to not add any more wheelbase for streetbike reasons. Really, that is all I would have to do.
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 08, 2009 09:34 AM
That is almost my identical setup and weight from last year....
|
kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
|
posted March 08, 2009 11:44 AM
One other thing that seemed to be was a 150-200 rpm drop going through the lights compared to no lockup. Didnt realize it slipped that much with just springs.
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted March 08, 2009 12:13 PM
I found some very interesting results yesterday about cush drives......., totally affected my damn clutch set up......., foing from a stock cush drive, to a marchesini cush drive......, learn something new all the time.........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted March 08, 2009 12:34 PM
btw, thanks for the kind words Scott.......
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 08, 2009 12:47 PM
quote:
One other thing that seemed to be was a 150-200 rpm drop going through the lights compared to no lockup. Didnt realize it slipped that much with just springs.
At equal mph?
|
kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
|
posted March 08, 2009 12:55 PM
No... Didnt think about that. I was down 4-5mph yesterday. Blamed most of it on the strong headwind. That should explain the rev thing. Duh, I'm stupid.
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted March 08, 2009 06:38 PM
jockey, if you dont think bare arms is enough weight, try the aluminum bolts and aluminum nuts.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted March 08, 2009 09:13 PM
bare arms will hold it.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC