KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted March 02, 2009 02:07 PM
running on E85
just something im thinking about trying, but im a little confused on how you tune it. i know it requires roughly 30-40% more fuel per volume(getting that much more flow can be done a few ways), but the AFR has me confused as gas has a different stoich than e85. gas is 14.7:1 where e85 is 9.76:1 both stoich values are Lambda 1.0. so, should i just start tuning based on Lambda as to avoid any possible mix ups?
for example, if i want to tune my motor to run at 12.7:1afr on gas, and if i used that same value for e85, it would be really lean right? but, if i tuned using Lambda, 12.7:1 afr using gas is 0.86 Lambda. if i tuned e85 to 0.86 lambda, it should be the correct amount "richer" than stoich. am i correct?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted March 02, 2009 06:24 PM
Correct. Tuning with Lambda values is the easiest method when dealing with mixed fuels. Your O2 senor creates a voltage based on lambda. It doesn't care weather the exhaust gas is from burnt gasoline, ethanol, nitromethane, or a mix of all three. With most dataloggers, you can configure it to display lambda, or AFR. The software multiplies the lambda value by 14.7 to get the AFR.
As you pointed out, the stoich multiplier is different for fuels other than 100% gasoline, so it doesnt display the true AFR.
I run a blend anywhere from 50 - 85% ethanol depending on weather conditions. I tune for about .82 lambda, which is an AFR of 8.0. But the gauge on my dash (calibrated for gasoline) indicates an AFR of 12.0.
I love the way the bike runs on E85. More power and very smooth once I got a fuel map worked out. It feels like an oxygenated race fuel, but doesnt stink as bad as MR9.
Speaking of race fuels, you should be using them, Scott. Try several fuels and determine the pros and cons of each before you move to complicated blends.
Dont even think about using more than 40% ethanol until you have a bigger fuel pump and injectors.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 02, 2009 06:47 PM
ahh the voice of knowledge and expirience 
thank you for the clarification Rob. my LM-1 has afr or lambda
im thinking pretty hard about doing an e85 conversion with the bike someday(availability and cost are the factors are holding me back right now). im thinking that a bigger pump and up the psi from 41 to 70 (30% increase in flow thru the same size injector with the same duty cycle) may work fine with stock injectors as im nowhere close to running "dry nitrous map big" values(40-45s) in my pc map now for my 1287(12s-17s in the 100% at race rpms). im running a wet system for nitrous so i dont need a ton of extra fuel from the injectors, just enough for the conversion.
i dont really want to get into blending fuels at this point, so e85 the way you get it at a gas station is what i would be trying. i do plan on trying race fuels this season though even if the injection system says on its diet of 91 pump. im going to be running c12 or c16 in the secondary tank for the wet kit. i wish i knew how to determine the octane rating of what the motor would be "seeing" when the injectors are spraying 91 and the wet kit is spraying nitrous and c12 or c16
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted March 02, 2009 09:52 PM
 Edited By: osti33 on 3 Mar 2009 06:01
Scott,
Here is a good thread with regards to e85 and e98. Read the posts by Crazybill. He has done a lot testing with ethanol. Long story short other than it being cheaper to buy he didn't seem all that impressed it didn't sound like to me. If you search over there he has several other posts about ethanol.
http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=131467.0
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted March 03, 2009 06:00 AM
hey Ryan, thx for the link. there was a guy on another site saying he picked up a tenth and 5mph in the 1/4 by switching from 87 pump to e85. he hadnt added any extra timing either. that looked quite impressive to me. the fact that it runs cooler and has a higher octane than pump gas is appealing to me aswell. "should" be able to run more nitrous in LSR applications without melting
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted March 03, 2009 11:54 AM
how much of our fuel system is ok with e85? i was thinking of this a while ago and someone posted why would you want to do it? well as scott says cooler running and i think 104 octane.
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 03, 2009 04:00 PM
i read 20 degrees cooler water temps were recorded in drag cars from switching. i think the octane rating is 100 to 105 depending on if its winter or summer fuel respectively. winter stuff is only 70 % ethanol i think.
i think our fuel systems are ok with it as long as you dont get water around it. e85 sucks up water. Rob, you still running stock fuel lines?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted March 03, 2009 04:38 PM
Walbro makes an e85 specific fuel pump with performance that falls between typical 155 and 190 lph pumps. See http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/doc/walbro_e85_pump.pdf for detailed specs. In lieu of higher-flow injectors, you might want to consider running higher fuel pressure.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted March 05, 2009 12:35 PM
quote:
im thinking that a bigger pump and up the psi from 41 to 70 (30% increase in flow thru the same size injector with the same duty cycle) may work fine with stock injectors .
just curious Tim, I was told a guy was running a stock pump(stock motor too), so im guessing the stock pump has no issues about conducting electricity thru the fuel, would a normal Walbro be the same way? like the popular "muzzy" pump (gss307 i think) or the gss242?. is the e85 pump good for pump gas or c16 ect?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted March 05, 2009 01:10 PM
The issue isn't whether the stock pump can conduct electricity through the fuel, it's that the seals and electrical provisions on a standard pump get oxidized by the fuel. They work okay for a while, then they degrade or develop corrosion on the electrical connections that can become ignition sources. This is bad. The e85 pumps are built with corrosion resistant materials and their electrical connections are potted to prevent corrosion. They work fine for pump gas or race gas, too. Just make sure you know what kind of flow rate you need at whatever pressure you select to be sure the e85 pump can deliver what you need.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted March 05, 2009 01:32 PM
ahhh ok. thanks! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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