entropy
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posted February 22, 2009 04:34 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 22 Feb 2009 20:36
for youse guys that stress about oil, stress some more
Royal purple 10/40 full syn vs Rotella 15/40
i built a new motor last week (junkyard dog) but forgot to change the oil after 3 heat cycles before going to the dyno, so i have an unintended comparison between RP 15/40 full syn and Rotella 15/40 "normal" oil.
I routinely log oil pressure
the Rotella gave lower oil pressure nearly everywhere:
______RP___Rotella___change
4000__46_____46________ 0
4500__53_____52________ -1
5000__60_____57________ -3
5500__64_____62________ -2
6000__70_____66________ -4
6500__74_____69________ -5
7000__77_____73________ -4
7500__79_____75________ -4
8000__81_____76________ -6
8500__82_____76________ -6
9000__81_____77________ -4
9500__86_____78________ -8
10000_85_____81________ -4
10500_85_____79________ -6
11000_84_____79________ -5
11500_85_____79________ -6
12000_85_____80________ -5
At 9000 the shimmed oil relief valve started opening, and i have no clue as to why the Rotella would open it at a lower pressure.
I don't understand any of this stuff, and use RP cause the color is cool.
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psycho1122
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posted February 22, 2009 07:38 AM
Synthetic oil Polymers are uniform and close to the same size compared to dino oil. That would allow them to expand equaly compared to dino oil. This could be the reason for the slight pressure rise over the dino.
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tcchin
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posted February 22, 2009 10:44 AM
There could be a difference in viscosity, as 40 is not a fixed number, but a range. The XRP series is not API certified because of its non-emissions-friendly add pack, and may vary slightly from the real API viscosity standard. Did you log oil temp too? If the Rotella was running hotter, it would have been less viscous, too.
I have no explanation for why the relief valve would open sooner with R-T, except that maybe your pressure transducer has an accuracy problem which caused an offset in all of the readings you logged yesterday.
When did you start using RP 15W40? I thought you were using 10W40 all this time.
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Shane661
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posted February 22, 2009 11:24 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Feb 2009 19:25
I'm dumb so bear with me...
The relief is only interested in pressure...not viscosity, temperature, color, or any other variable...correct?
To me that indicates a discrepancy with the logged data.
Shane
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entropy
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posted February 22, 2009 11:26 AM
Edited By: entropy on 22 Feb 2009 20:35
quote:
There could be a difference in viscosity, as 40 is not a fixed number, but a range. The XRP series is not API certified because of its non-emissions-friendly add pack, and may vary slightly from the real API viscosity standard. Did you log oil temp too? If the Rotella was running hotter, it would have been less viscous, too.
I have no explanation for why the relief valve would open sooner with R-T, except that maybe your pressure transducer has an accuracy problem which caused an offset in all of the readings you logged yesterday.
When did you start using RP 15W40? I thought you were using 10W40 all this time.
I don't log oil temp, but that certainly could be a factor, maybe the RP runs cooler, throws heat better?
certainly could be a change in offset of the transducer. The only reason i went to the logs and made the comparison is that i noticed the max oil pressure this week was running in hi 70's, and normally its in the mid 80's or higher.
i looked at the RP bottle and it is 10/40, gotta wear my glasses more often 
Is there any real difference in 10/40 vs 15/40?
I thought the lower # indicated performance at like 78degrees (or some such), and that the higher # indicated performance at operating temp so that the lower number really doesn't matter unless one lives in Flintabbityflonaton, Canada.
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tcchin
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posted February 22, 2009 12:47 PM
The lower number is a winter rating (like 0F or something - the real number escapes me at the moment), but it has some bearing on the shape of the viscosity/temp curve. So, if you exceed the rated operating temp by 10% or so, a 15W40 might have a different viscosity than a 10W40, even if both oils are in the 40W range at rated operating temp.
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NOX
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posted February 22, 2009 06:15 PM
I do know this......
Last year, after building my frankenstein stocker......., I had an oil guage on it.......
Broke the motor in on 5w30 castrol. After a pass, at the ticket booth, motor would have like 4 to 5 psi at 1500 rpm idle.......
Then, next weekend, dropped in RP XPR 5w30. the old racing 21. Same pressure after a pass.......
When I switched to amsoil......, pressure went up..., to 10 to 12 psi, for the 5w30 amsoil.
Then, I went the next oil change to amsoil dominator 5w20. I have about 7 to 8 psi at 1500 rpm idle after a pass........,
A lot of the hp I think people are getting with rp, and some other brands, is it gets real thin......., it hauled balls in my motor, and until I switched pans, it was great, and I recomend it........, but, I lost no et on amsoil, actually gained a couple hun in same weather, I have a weather station......., and it has a hair better psi at idle..........
Thats all I know, but thats why I am staying with amsoil. I told my rep he was full of crap when we spoke, but I will be danged if he was not right...........
The dominator is actually red. It looks like car tranny oil.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted February 22, 2009 07:31 PM
Hope Dyno runs went well for ya Karl. I was not very lucky this weekend. The new cam chain I pulled out of the package was the wrong one, even though the outside of the package was labeled correctly. So the old 12 motor should be together this next weekend, if I do not run into more problems.
Very interesting on the oil pressure. Have you ever logged heavier weight oil? I am probably an idiot, but I run the heavier stuff. The bike is mainly street duty and does get rather hot in summer time traffic.
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KZScott
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posted February 22, 2009 08:42 PM
very interesting! have you tried Motul Karl? Wolf was running some green stuff in his big stroker. seems like the best oils are very colourful
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dougmeyer
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posted February 22, 2009 08:58 PM
I did a lot of dyno testing when I started running the Motul. I was skeptical, but without fail my oil pressure was up 5-7 pounds and hp was up 3. And, I mean real testing - baseline, change, return to baseline. I think we tested sicx oils and Motul was clearly the beset of the bunch. I talked to Dave Wolman at Motul and asked for an explanation. Here are the reasons I was given.
1.HIGH QUALITY Syns. resist aeration better. Less gas trapped in the fluid to compress increases pressure.
2. The oil has more "integrity". Molecular chains resist "shearing" making the pump more efficient. In a gear or geroter pump this also reduces aeration.
The hp increase is simply reduced internal friction.
Since then, it's all I run in all my stuff. My Z-06 reduced oil temps 5 deg, is quieter and (subjectively) comes off idle smoother.
(LS series engines use a big geroter ring pump around the crank nose.)
D.
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KZScott
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posted February 22, 2009 09:40 PM
great info, whats your favourite flavour of Motul Doug(regarding a 12R)?
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00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
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entropy
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posted February 23, 2009 04:21 AM
quote:
great info, whats your favourite flavour of Motul Doug(regarding a 12R)?
yep, good question for Doug or other oily folks.
it seems that 300V comes in 15/50, 5/30, 5/40
which would be best for LSR.
I go to the dyno so often, it would be cool to do a test.
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NOX
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posted February 23, 2009 06:10 AM
There is also some tests online that show the viscosity tests.......
one of the lucas oils did not even test as what it was advertized..........
RP got thin real quick. Probably why everyone goes so fast with it......, but, it will make a motor live a long time.......
Before I starved mine, I had 1000 passes on the motor, and the bearings looked new......
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dougmeyer
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posted February 23, 2009 12:11 PM
I used 15/50 at Bonneville. For Drag Racing or Mile I'd use 5/30 or 5/40. I use 15/50 in the Vette.
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2000redrocket
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posted February 23, 2009 01:00 PM
i use etech 100 10/40. i like it
as for the oil numbers the first smaller number i think i remember is the base stock weight.
then i think the second number is what it protects like at proper oil temp.
in my drag car i tried 0w30 redline oil and it did not give me anything. i know a person dave did some dyno oil testing also. he said the royal purple was a winner by 5 or so 6 hp.he also said he would not think it would be good on the street being so thin.but i am sure it was his opinion.
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NOX
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posted February 23, 2009 05:16 PM
Edited By: NOX on 24 Feb 2009 01:17
What were the weather conditions......
So many people do tests, and do not record the air........
I went from rp, to amsoil, in worse air, and gained......., everyone else was going slower than they did the last weekend, and I went quicker......, including cars......
thats a good comparo......
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2000redrocket
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posted February 23, 2009 06:41 PM
the weather i do not know about except it was all done in 1 day. so the weather was mostly the same but the temp i am sure moved around in the dyno room some.it was intresting.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 23, 2009 07:05 PM
Theres one particular Joe Gibbs oil that makes more power than any other oil we have tried, and we have tried every oil we can get our hands on.
I'll have to find out which one exactly it is. We just refer to it in the shop as "the good oil". But we never break in an engine on the dyno with it.
I dont know if it has molybdenum in it or not thou. That could be a problem for a wet clutch.
The Gibbs oils were originally developed by Richard Childress Racing but I forget the whole story now as to what happened with all that.
The bad news is, they arnt cheap.
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dougmeyer
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posted February 23, 2009 07:27 PM
NOX,
If that question was for me, these were "real tests" done on a Stuska engine dyno with stabilized oil and water temps, accurately corrected air and returns to baseline oil in between test oil. Spent a long day doing it. They were done at Bob Wirth Racing Engines in Hayward CA. We believe we tested two kinds of Castrol, Mobil 1, Kendall, and Motul. The baseline oil was Kawasaki 20/50 four stroke oil, which by the way, is very good oil blended by Citgo.
It was on one of my ZX-11's, I believe it was in 1993 or 1994.
Doug
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NOX
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posted February 23, 2009 10:40 PM
RP has moly in it.........
I have seen it make minor changes in a lockup tune up, as in, maybe being 3 or 4 lbs of static off....., but, I did not need to change anything from RP to Amsoil.
But, I have seen 15 40 motul screw up a lock up tune, when the bike i tuned came back from rpm with it in it........., it went there with racing 11 in it......, then fell on its face on the starting line........., changed the oil, and it 60ed like a mo fo again.......
DM, that question was not for you.
Good info though.
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