whitehendrix
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posted February 09, 2009 09:55 PM
time for head work.
i wanted to give myself something to do while i wait on parts or have nothing to do at the shop, so.. i think i'll start on my valve unshrouding and maybe slight port work.
now, i've ported and polished turbos and throttle bodies and my XR 50, but have yet to do a precise job on a multicylinder head.. instead of playing on someone elses with the insurmountable and stupid risk of trashing it, i wanna work on my own.
from what i've seen and read, a piece of plexiglass and a syringe is needed, but i'd like to know if thers better ways or what your take is on this.. mind you, i've been a machinist and fabricator and know a thing or 3 about precision measurement, taking my time, and making precise moves to sculpt out whats in my mind. i'll be using my matco carbide deburring bits and a pneumatic stright grinder unless you pros suggest otherwise. (stones, dremel, ect..)
so.. what should i do to start this off right?
oh, as well, being that i'll be removing material from the CC, i'd love to figure out or get a write up or link on figuring CR so i can start on the target CR.. i don't think i'll be taking enough to drop to my target 8.5:1, but i'm also not sure how close i will get just by doing this..
as well, i'm hoping my selected CR is acceptable?
thanks in advance for your time and input. 
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
  
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KZScott
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posted February 10, 2009 06:08 AM
 Edited By: KZScott on 10 Feb 2009 14:08
you may find this interesting. dads winter build(click here) ive been busy working on my truck(not easy fitting 325 85 R16s on a Dakota) and have been slacking on the bikes. ill soon be back at them. one more exh port to go and ill see if i can lap a head like the big boys....
8.5:1 sounds good for a big turbo. is this the motor getting the forged pistons? (you will need them for big boost)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted February 10, 2009 10:40 PM
yuppers. i'll be doing rods, pistons, different valves and possibly bearings if i can see there would be a benefit.
found my V band for my TDO5-L today!!!!
soo happy. couldn't find it for damn near a year. now i can at least play with the mitsu turbo without it falling apart.. lol i COULD technically go ahead and start fabbin up a low-boost system on the stock motor with it.. if i can track some pipe down and a TIG welder, i will.
still need some helpful hints on the unshrouding
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted February 11, 2009 01:57 AM
did you look at the pics in the link?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted February 11, 2009 09:44 PM
i did.. maybe i'm a moron, but i didn't make the connection 
i can clearly see your porting job tho.. but i was thinkin in my feeble mind that i'd like to "CC" the heads first, get a base number, then unshroud and open the chambers up a little bit and take another measurement, for both the use of knowing the chamber's capacity and to ensure they're exactly the same size across the board.
i think this can be done with the ports too? or would a flow bench be more suited for that?
i can always (and probably will soon) build a flow bench.
this hardcore stuff is kinda new to me.. i know ppl how have done it and like i said.. i've played around on stuff i couldn't really screw up, so me getting this right the first time is top priority.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted February 12, 2009 12:38 AM
keep in mind im no expert, but i have a bit of a grasp on this stuff.  unshrouding the valves helps to increase flow at low valve lift, and also removes sharp edges from the combustion chamber, but it lowers cr a bit. usually a win win loose situation, but win win win for your turbo
try to think of the valve opened up just a tiny bit and try to picture the flow of air down into the cylinder. some of the cylinder head is actually "in the way" at low lift, especially on a big bore where you have that edge around the bore. put a head gasket on and trace it with a sharpie, that will show you how far you can go
my build last winter:
this pic is from Doug Meyer. Hopefully he doesnt mind me posting it. Im pretty sure this head was on his turbo 12R that set the record at bonneville for the worlds fastest bagger (corbin hard bags installed i think)
its been heavily worked, even between the valve seats has been touched(angled more)
and from Jim (y2k). these pics are posted in the 12 section waay back (3 yrs or so) in his 1375 build thread, so i dont think he will mind me posting them here. im sure he has a radical new and improved cnc design by now, but these are pretty good!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted February 12, 2009 12:47 AM
about the ports. while have identical sizes is key, its not going to determine if you have them all the same. one could be a very good design, while another one may have too much removed from one section, and not enough somewhere else, but the volume would be the same as the better port. i think a flow bench is needed to get them the same if you do a lot of work. its very easy to go backwards in the power department if you do much more than a clean up and port match. ask Jim how long and how it takes and how much testing is required to come up with a port design.
I basically copied proven stuff so i didnt worry too much about going backwards
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted February 12, 2009 05:14 AM
Like Scott said, just do more of a clean up and sandpaper in the ports. Unshroud the valves and you will be fine.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted February 13, 2009 09:55 PM
ok.. Scott. i realize what i was missing.. i didn't notice just how much you DIDN'T remove on the unshrouding!! i knew you had to, i just couldn't tell how much and from where.
my problem is that no one works on building up the 7-R.
and probably for good reasons. haha.. oh well..
i guess for the CCing i can just stick a sparkplug in the hole and keep the valves in.. i'm guessing i'll have to seal the plexiglass up with grease similar to how you guys check CR.. i'll read up on this right after i post.
and Jim, i'll take you advice and just do a polishing.
wish me luck!! haha.. slow and sure.. if i think i'm gonna jeapardize something, i'll be sure to post up first and wait for the infinite wisdom from you guys.
thanks alot. i do appreciate it!
(i'm going to have to figure out how to repay all of ya's here somehow!! )
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted February 13, 2009 11:31 PM
i think you will have better luck filling it thru the plug hole. i tried the plexiglass way like you are describing and couldnt get the air bubbles out. my suggestion is put a piece of plexiglass(greased on the edges very lightly) over the CC with valves in flip it over, and fill it to the top of the threads on the plug hole. if your bike uses something similar to a cr9ek or so subtract 1.2ml from the total(for the plug)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted February 14, 2009 06:06 AM
quote:
(i'm going to have to figure out how to repay all of ya's here somehow!! )
WH: repays are traditionally done with BEER!!!
come to the Loring Mile August 1-2!
bring BEER!!
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
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posted February 14, 2009 03:47 PM
and lots of it!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted February 14, 2009 10:33 PM
name your brew and if i can get up there, count on a free ticket to inebriation
and i do use a CR9E.. lol. awesome how you know exactly what to deduct!! down to the milliliter!! haha.
i'll try both ways before doing anything just to get a feel.. i like your right-side-up way better tho.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 15, 2009 02:42 PM
when you get it running under boost, try a cr10eix. stock for the 12 is cr9ekpa, i used cr10ek(better for spray) and will be trying the cr10eix as they should hold up a bit better still
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted February 17, 2009 08:54 PM
thanks! i don't think i have any of those in stock.. might have to get a box ordered.
pretty sure i got 7-9 tho.. lol
i was kinda wondering what range to go up to.. is there a way to calculate that? guessing tho that maybe it's just common sense and a bit of good knowledge coming into play..
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted March 04, 2009 08:55 AM
Deshroud and CC those combustion chambers "Baby" yes thats where you make power at !!! Little overlooked things that some world class engine builders or cylinder head shops don't do for or disclose to some of their customer's....I really like the way Doug Meyer's cylinder head looks kinda reminds me of how minds looked after being extensively reworked....This is getting good, i need popcorn....LOL
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted March 04, 2009 09:12 PM
hell ya.
i can't wait til i actually have some time to devote to it and get the shit together to actually do it and do it right thie first time.
got plexiglass and all that.. i dunno.. maybe a lil nervous too about the possibilty of scrapping a perfectly good head!! haha.. unshrouding doesn't seem to be a big deal tho.. pretty straightforward.
we'll see in a few months!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted March 05, 2009 07:25 AM
Just a basic question...
It looks like you are unshrouding the valves on the "sides". However, no changes are being made on the "front" and "back" of the combustion chamber.
Why is this?
Shane
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted March 05, 2009 11:08 AM
nowhere else is really in the way as bad imo. plus for not knowing what would happen, i left the quench areas alone. hopefully a smarter guy will answer....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted March 05, 2009 11:12 PM
i still think that i am in need of stuff i don't yet have.
i dunno.. wish there was a list or how-to or i knew someone who has done this and i could see it done first hand or somethin. lol
i'll port the hell out of a single cylinder engine all day tho!!
i don't think i'll have to do too much tho.. i mean, it's a straighforward job.. and i can judge things by eye very closely.. so i guess all i need to do is measure the chamber displacement, start grinding til i'm happy (i guess!?) then remeasure.. then move to the next one and match the number i got on the first one..
??
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted March 06, 2009 05:45 AM
quote:
Just a basic question...
It looks like you are unshrouding the valves on the "sides". However, no changes are being made on the "front" and "back" of the combustion chamber.
Why is this?
Shane
I guess it's a secret? 
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Shane661
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posted March 06, 2009 08:55 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Mar 2009 16:56
More info on unshrouding:
http://www.diyporting.com/Shrouding.html
Shane
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted March 08, 2009 01:41 AM
Come on Y2KZX12..... ?????
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted March 08, 2009 04:43 AM
quote:
Come on Y2KZX12..... ?????
Make the MCSA 1.9 sq in.
Make the short turn a nice radius.
Open the intake valve seat to 89% of the valve size.
Dont leave the divider sharp.
Flapper wheel the entire port.
Lay the intake eyebrows back in the chambers like the pics.
Thats all there is too it.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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Posts: 757
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posted March 08, 2009 10:19 PM
Edited By: whitehendrix on 9 Mar 2009 06:30
Hmm.. i don't know whether to laugh or cry.
thank you, Jim, for that concise and perfect outline.
you make that shit sound SOOooo easy. (not that it's uber hard.. but still.)
i just picked up an intercooler, so hopefully i can start really putting effort into the build and getting things done. got almost everything now.. except a TIG welder (which i have a lead on possibly/hopefully)
i will keep ya's informed on whats going on.. as i'm sure to induce a face-palm moment or 3 for you pros with my thousands of questions i'll probably generate.
Jim.. i owe ya boss. might have to road-trip to your shop and pay you in booze or something.
oh.. and is your MCSA value a ZX7-R head specific number, or is that just a good number to use?
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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