WRECKSHOP
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posted February 05, 2009 10:24 AM
Ok, i got a question for "Y2KZX12R" thats a little off the subject. I've been hearing that the NEWEN BB COUNTOUR CNC valve seat machining center is world class and is waayyyy better than the Serdi and Sunnen valve seat machining centers ? So, whats your take on the Newen single point cutters? They are suppose to produce more concentric and better valve seats and angles with very little or no chatter at all. It's suppose to acheive very, very tight/close tolerances which is unacheivable with the other two mentioned machines....Valve seal that is so good Vance & Hines, Cooper Performance and KWS are seeing anywhere form 4-5 horsepower increase just with a valve job alone. These mentioned companies are suppose to be the only ones with these CNC valve seat machines? I think you have the Sunnen VGS20 if i'm not wrong ?
  
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brickman
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posted February 05, 2009 01:24 PM
is that 4 to 5 hp over what you would normally see with a good valve job done on a sunnen or serdi? i would think the man setting up and running it would have a lot to do with it... very interesting subject...that i know very little about.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 05, 2009 03:39 PM
Yes we have a Sunnen VGS20. The Newen is the best money can buy. They start at $80,000 and go up. Where as a serdi or sunnen vgs20 is about $30,000.
The newen machines are a CNC single point machine that doesnt use a carbide (shape) cutter. It uses a standard insert and relies on movement to create the shape desired.
So you dont have to buy and organize dozens of profile cutters. When you want a different seat shape you program the machine to cut that shape.
With the serdi and sunnen machines you have to design the custom cutter, fax them a drawing and they make the cutter and mail it to you a week later.
The sunnen and serdi machines can have chatter but chatter can be minimized by varrying the spindle speed and keeping the carbide sharp.
Seat runout is another concern. When doing a valvejob on automotive stuff with 8mm or 5/16 or 3/8 valve stem sizes the carbide pilot is thick enough to offer great stability and repeatability. The skill level needed to do a good valve job is minimal. But when you get down to the 5mm and 4.5mm stuff like on these bike heads you can get into trouble in a hurry. The pilot is still carbide but its so thin that it will bend easily. When carbide bends it springs back perfectly straight again. But its like glass, if you drop it or bend it too far it shatters like glass.
So when using the serdi or sunnen on the smaller valve stem sizes it requires a lot of carefull finesse and know how to get the runout below .001" and not have any chatter.
Runout is a problem to a running engine bacause it induces harmonics into the valve and spring. chatter is a problem because it creates a less than perfect seal.
My cutters are designed by myself and cut the seat .008" narrower than whats desired. This creates the seat shape and overall profile desired and sets the choke. Then we use a 45 blade on just the seat and widen it that last .008". This reduces the runout because the cutting contact area is about 5% of the contact area of the full profile cutter. Typically this reduces runout to about .0005". Remember the valve stem to guide clearance is WAY more than .0005" so the valve will seat fine.
Then we will sometimes lap the seats in with a very fine lapping coumpound. or sometimes use a very fine spindle stone to polish the seat.
What this does is remove any radial chatter marks that you cant see with the eye. It creates a good seal on first start up.
The newen machine self aligns with an electronic spindle and centers itself. It cuts with a very fine single point so theres no deflection, less heat buildup.
Its also very easy for any of the shop guys to do a good valvejob on. It requires very little "skill" to use. you just need to know how the software works.
If you want more detailed info you can call Charlie from "short block charlies" in arizona.
He is the Newen "repair guy" for the USA. We talked for quite a long time at the PRI show in orlando last december. He gave me a full demo and we cut seats and discussed it at length.
I can see myself buying one in a few years. But to be honest, I dont believe a valvejob done on one would make 5hp more than one of my valvejobs. We dont have chatter, and very little runout. But I have seen many many poor valvejobs that dont seal worth a shit and theres no doubt that theres power to be had in that case.
Also you have to remember that the choke and seat profile has a lot to do with the power output of a valvejob. Not just the sealing aspect.
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Y2KZX12R
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whitehendrix
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posted February 05, 2009 07:38 PM
how many engineering degrees do you have, man!?
5? 12?
"Runout is a problem to a running engine bacause it induces harmonics into the valve and spring."
again.. like with everything else you say.. makes sense, but where the hell does that come from? do you just sit around all day and theorize and experiment and test? you probably have all these oscilloscopes and vibration monitors and crazy shit all over the place and have a book the thickness of "War and Peace" full of bits of engineering and theory goodness like your harmonics thing (which you've probably calculated from the root to the 100th frequencies) and your blow-by/flutter "mapping" and 30 ways to measure squish and CR and PTV and God knows what else.
i seriuosly wanna just move into your shop. kinda be your shop dog of sorts.. throw me a pizza and a dew and teach me this insane stuff, and i'll be happy.
if i knew a 10th of what you do, i'd be content. 
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted February 05, 2009 09:55 PM
Thats why i asked him....He knows his stuff and makes sense when he explains himself. Thats why i think i'm going to send him a 2006 ZX-10R head to experiment with !!!
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KZScott
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posted February 05, 2009 09:57 PM
yeah, Jim knows his shit! im sending him my head in a few weeks for some upgrades 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 06, 2009 05:40 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 6 Feb 2009 13:44
WH, actually most all this info is out there to be had. You just have to know where to look. Valvetrain harmonics testing is really nothing new, its been going on forever. They use very highspeed cameras with measuring devices to find all this stuff out. Then if your lucky they share the info. We could never afford the equipment needed to test this stuff, so we must read.
If you guys are really into the engineering aspect of these engines I highly recomend Gordon P. Blairs book "The design and Simulation of 4 stroke engines". Its about $90.
Sign up and become an SAE member and you get access to SAE papers. They are on a wide range of topics and studies but there are many related to the otto 4 stroke cycle and the 2 stroke cycle engines.
My partner Bill is far more knowledgable in the intricasies of oddball engine machining and building than I am. We work on some wierd stuff.
This week we were honeing two microwave polarity divider tubes for a guy that are going on a 250 foot dish to monitor stuff in space. Its a big $$$ NASA project and his company is building the hardware. They are a solid brass machined piece with a bore about 3" in dia that had to be honed very, very, precisely to a diamter and finish so when the gold plating is applied there is no diviant signal loss etc.
We didnt really need to know the details just waht they wanted done But I asked "what is this for exactly?" and he started going into way too much detail. As he was explaining it to us and I just stood there with the deer in the headlight look.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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brickman
Expert Class
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posted February 06, 2009 06:27 AM
if you ever need a zx10 head to try a few things on i got a extra 06 complete head in good shape i'll send you....lol... i'd also like to talk with you about my carpenter head. when it's fixed this time it's going on a all motor bike. and i think i well go all bronze this time...is there a number were i can call you? thats if you have the time to work on it...thanks
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 06, 2009 09:37 AM
CompetitionCNC.com 860 274 0631
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Y2KZX12R
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whitehendrix
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posted February 06, 2009 07:16 PM
HAHAHAHA i used to "play" with microwaves. that stuff is insane. at one time i considered RF and electronics engineering for my degree. i played alot with RF stuff and made a good bit of money on the side tuning and modding CB radios and HAM equipment. probably one of a few reasons my eyes are trashed. the eyes are the most sensitive part of the body when it comes to RF/EMI absorbing.. that and years of close-up electronics work.. keying up CBs playing with 500 watt tube-driven amplifiers and watcing the oscilloscope sure didn't do me any favors.
and thats mind-blowing that someone knows more obsure and oddball stuff that you!! haha.. you're still a God tho, man!! lol.. 
i guess high-speed cameras would tell a tale of wave transmissions and harmonics in the valvetrain. interesting way to capture them. i know theres ways of tuning for those harmonics and such in spring slection and all.. yet another thing tho that i've added on the list of things to figure out!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 07, 2009 04:37 AM
quote:
i guess high-speed cameras would tell a tale of wave transmissions and harmonics in the valvetrain. interesting way to capture them. i know theres ways of tuning for those harmonics and such in spring slection and all..
Ferrea had a highspeed video of a valvetrain in action at very high rpm. Its scarry to watch.
The spintron is used by all the race teams in cup racing these days. Another expensive piece of equipment I'd love to have!!!!
The main reason I use the APE springs over any other spring for the Busa, 12r, 14, is bacause the rate of rise is higher and they are progressive wound. Like a behive spring the progressive springs are a varriable frequency spring which provides a damping effect on harnonics. The seat pressure is about the same as other springs 61# but the spring has more tension at any given lift and the higher the lift the more tension they have over other springs i've tested.
This is important when running high valve velocity cams over 1.6 cam l/d ratio.
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Y2KZX12R
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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posted February 07, 2009 08:56 PM
l/d = lift/duration?
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
Y2KZX12R
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posted February 08, 2009 04:20 AM
yea
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Y2KZX12R
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ra12r
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posted February 12, 2009 06:25 PM
Very interesting. Just for note, I ran a 1436 without problems. I however, did not use the offset block from muzzy, I used a sbm block which is not offset.
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MadMike
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posted February 12, 2009 07:10 PM
RA dude great to hear from you!!!!
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KZScott
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posted February 12, 2009 07:45 PM
the non offset blocks were kinda prone to HG issues werent they? my 1287 block is thin enough between the bores...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 15, 2009 04:28 AM
HG issues?
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Y2KZX12R
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aliveagain
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posted February 15, 2009 09:51 AM
There was some luck reported with Cometic HP head gaskets but they were discontinued.
quote:
They were discontinued and will not be re-made. The testing that we did showed that with a properly built and tuned motor there is no need for the extra thickness around the bore. The extra thickness caused excessive head and bore distortion as when torqued they were basically trying to bend the head around that thicker layer to seal the outer edges of the gasket. Also testing showed that our standard multi-layer steel gaskets were holding up to the same similar pressure.
I was told to make sure both head and cylinder block were perfectly flat.Any deviance would cause the middle gasket to flutter.That is why I will be going with a thicker gasket and hope not to lose too much compression.I am hoping no base gasket and the resurfacing of the head and cylinder will even out with the thicker head gasket.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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aliveagain
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posted February 15, 2009 09:56 AM
I should clarify that the quote above was referring to the old hp gasket which had a thicker gasket part just around the cylinder.I had mine custom cut for the whole middle layer to be thicker.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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KZScott
Needs a life
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posted February 15, 2009 02:46 PM
quote:
HG issues?
Head Gaskets not sealing between the bores
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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