KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 11, 2009 01:53 PM
mixing octane levels. end result octane?
If i have my 1287 running about 12.6:1 AFR on 91 octane(rough guess 185hp NA), and have my wet kit spraying VP C-16 from the secondary tank with the nitrous. Running 120 hp shot of nitrous, with no map changes, and tuned to about 11.6:1 AFR, what octane level is my motor "seeing" when using nitrous?
My guess is around 102 octane?
thanks!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted January 11, 2009 02:06 PM
Octane mixing can be very non-linear. Only testing can tell you with any certainty.
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Texas12R
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posted January 11, 2009 07:09 PM
 Edited By: Texas12R on 12 Jan 2009 03:09
Im not going to thread jack you..... but I have wondered about fuel quality and spoke with
a driver dumping a load of fuel.....He told me to google top tier gas....It is interesting to say the least
I never Knew.....
and now back to our regularly scheduled program 
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted January 11, 2009 08:00 PM
spoke with a guy at my fuel sponsors shop.........
He was buying propeline oxide.., by the quart......,
What are you putting it in I ask........., he says a chainsaw........., runs in top saw in that lumberjack stuff...., too cool.........
Got me to thinking........, he said anything over 10 percent was a waste......
But..........., I wonder how it would work.........., or, NOT work...........
____________
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2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 11, 2009 09:57 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 12 Jan 2009 06:02
According to some people, propylene oxide was the primary oxygenate in VP U4. Propylene oxide has issues when it contacts rust and copper alloys (brass), and it is carcinogenic.
Hey Scott - why not just run VP C12 across the board? Guaranteed MON of 108 without the worries of mixing and measuring. It's cheap and readily available, so you can be sure it's fresh.
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted January 11, 2009 10:10 PM
I've been told by more than one fuel blender that if you mix two SIMILAR gasolines of different octane ratings, the resultant rating is proportional to the percentages of the different fuels by mass.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 11, 2009 10:20 PM
quote:
Hey Scott - why not just run VP C12 across the board? Guaranteed MON of 108 without the worries of mixing and measuring. It's cheap and readily available, so you can be sure it's fresh.
mainly because a lot of my runs are NA, and the added octane would only slow me down. I dont want to have to drain the tank between runs if im going to make a nitrous pass. the whole reason for the small tank in the tail is to make it user friendly. running on motor the bike runs normally on pump gas. running nitrous it gets a mix of pump gas and race gas(it does the "mixing" not me). I would like to get a rough idea of what octane the mixture is so i can ask about how much timing retard is needed 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 11, 2009 11:06 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 12 Jan 2009 07:18
There are a lot of myths about octane, but octane is only part of the story. Have you tested C12 against pump gas on the track? It's been my experience that it has better throttle response and better power delivery than pump gas.
See the following VP Tech Bulletin on C-12 for more info:
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/spec/techbulletin-c12.doc
In part, it says:
quote:
C12 was the first racing fuel to prove that burning speed, vaporization and BTU value were as important as octane. This allowed C12 to be the first racing fuel to make more power than other fuels that just concentrated on octane. C12 has been successful in a wide range of applications, including circle track (high and low compression), drag racing, off-road, desert, motocross, snowmobiles, jet skis and road racing. It’s still the best fuel across the widest range of applications of any fuel on the market.
Actually, you might get some good information from this link, as a lot of the operating parameters of your motor are similar to those of Sport Compact:
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/spec/TechBulletin-Sportfuels.doc
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted January 11, 2009 11:28 PM
Lower compression motors will slow down on high octane, vs pump gas........
Brock has proven that a ton.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
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Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 12, 2009 09:01 AM
That may have been true back when MTBE was still the pump gas oxygenate of choice, but since ethanol has been put into service, with its lower energy density relative to MTBE, that may no longer be the case. It also depends on which high octane fuel you're testing against. I know from personal experience that several of the VP products outperform pump gas by a lot, despite relatively high octane ratings. Of course, roadracing puts different demands on fuel than does drag racing.
No amount of theory can replace a good, structured test. If you have the means and the opportunity, you should test as many fuels as you can, including mixtures of your favorite individual fuels. I guarantee you will come away surprised.
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KZScott
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posted January 12, 2009 11:06 AM
hmmm has Brock tested a 13.5:1 CR motor?
last i checked though, everyone was running faster on 87, but im not sure how high the CR was...
I also dont really want to run on race fuel all the time. i like saying it runs on pump gas, and i also prefer the cost lol. I want to get the bike insured this season and street drive it more too.
It is something to try though. maybe ill get enough C-12 to test for one wknd. Any advise on increasing timing when switching from pump to C-12? Ive run 5 degrees advanced with no trouble on 87 pump(by mistake once)
Something else I was thinking of trying was U4.2 I know Nox likes it, but he runs NA. would it be a good fuel to run with nitrous if AFR is correct?
all that being said, my bike ran well (in my opinion) on 91 pump with a 90 shot(161mph in the 1/4). testing different fuels may be too much work with the amount of chassis and clutch tuning ahead of me. i think it will be fine with 30 more hp if the wet kit has C-16 instead of 91. I know you said mixing octanes was non linear, but im guessing at least 1/3 of the fuel the bike gets would be C-16 and the other 2/3 would be 91 pump. I could be wrong, but i think thats a shitload more octane for another 30 hp.
opinions are greatly appreciated
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted January 12, 2009 02:09 PM
I do believe Halvefast ran his ZX-14 at Texas on U4.2 and sprayed as well. You may want to talk to him...............................I do believe specific gravity for each fuel factors into the equation as well, maybe a reason higher than pump octane fuels do not loose much power.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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NOX
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted January 12, 2009 02:11 PM
quote:
That may have been true back when MTBE was still the pump gas oxygenate of choice, but since ethanol has been put into service, with its lower energy density relative to MTBE, that may no longer be the case. It also depends on which high octane fuel you're testing against. I know from personal experience that several of the VP products outperform pump gas by a lot, despite relatively high octane ratings. Of course, roadracing puts different demands on fuel than does drag racing.
No amount of theory can replace a good, structured test. If you have the means and the opportunity, you should test as many fuels as you can, including mixtures of your favorite individual fuels. I guarantee you will come away surprised.
Good point about the ethonol..........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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