flite leader
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posted December 10, 2008 11:34 AM
 Edited By: flite leader on 10 Dec 2008 19:42
REV LIMITERS
let me make an attempt to shed a little lite on an apparent mystery
i will use several valid examples
there are several different types of rev limiters............
the most common pulls spark out of several cylinders......on a 4 usually 2
no less its NOT unusual that it will pull the fuel also
if you are spraying & it pulls the spark.......the cylinder gets WET
then when the spark reappears.....BAM or BOOM
if it pulls the fuel also the A/F ratio is screwed no less
so when you shift or simply resume.........its under bad circumstances
now most all rev limiters were designed WITHOUT NOS mind......most will agree
let me give you another example
offshore boat racing, the engines run under HEAVY Load in a very narrow RPM range
we all know this can happen on glass smooth water...........the props get air
either from porpoising......air under the hull....wake......etc
they get air ! ! ! ! ! ! !
now you are pushing thousands off HP & then no load
they use a different type REV Limiter like NASCAR that holds the peak RPM steady
the boaters know that for a second....... air, but the Load + the Prop will meet water again
driveline breaks...... broken props...... broken engines are just not wanted
[yes some are diesels....they have valves pistons & rods also]
all that having been said is to point there is a better way & more than
1 way to accomplish the same when other factors are considered
NOS presents factors NO other engines have to face= crak headed engines
that >^>^>^>^>^<^<^<^>^>^<^<^>^>^<^>^>^< type rev limiter causes problems
to the carburetion [A/F ratio]...... valves....... rods .......& crank
thats why even in a nascar engine.........which are rather healthy.......robust
& reliable ...................that straddle that barb wire fence & RUN rev limiter is the worst ! ! ! ! !
now a peterbilt detroit diesel or CAT has the smooth kind
sometimes you have to do a "pump up" maximun rpm in a gear & hold it
cant be done with the barb wire type rev limiter
it would be spitting & bucking.......................you could get near redline & if you could hold it fine, otherwise you are hunting & pecking up & down all around
not a good way to drive an expensive truck + exp1 off equiptment into place
let alone destroyan engine that will go 1 million miles & still run
we all know what kind most motos have
thats why its IMPERATIVE when on NOS to stay off the rev limiter
if you dont agree.....ok
if you dont understand........alright
bottom line
erratic ignition + arbitrary A/F is simply not good
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
  
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 11:45 AM
barb wire rev limiter. now thats a new one. as far as a zx12r goes it cuts fuel not ignition, which means it will go lean when using nitrous. thats no big secret. its also no big secret that we all know that hitting the rev limiter is bad. it causes a lot of stress on parts. Doug Meyer explained it very well a LONG time ago.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 10, 2008 11:57 AM
Edited By: flite leader on 10 Dec 2008 20:12
yeah barb wire limiter .......sounds like a stutter box
no doubt doug knows
no doubt you know....................................yet
your explanation for you spit shim doesnt sound like you accept
your wanting to change valve guidematerial indicates
you have no idea/concept ofwhat i just recent told you.......... i commented on
doug concurred
you have fire on BOTH sides of you valves
you keep talikng about heat in your engine............................heres another tip
inefficient combustion will cause MORE HEAT than proper combustion
quite a bit more
you may have your reasons for running rich
you may have rationales for running rich
its costing you engine life
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 12:08 PM
I know hitting the rev limiter is bad
Im fully aware that that can cause a motor to spit a shim. it probably happened to mine. I never said it didnt.
I never once indicated that I wanted to change valve guide material.
Im looking to upgrade my valve seats to bronze to help keep the valves cooler because ill be using more nitrous next year.
tell Guy Caputo to not run his engine rich
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 12:17 PM
changing you valve guide material wont make them run cooler
guy can run his engine & you can anyway you like
but when you post pictures & you have more soot that a bad running diesel
broken valves...................spit shims
you dont know what wilted or weaken rings are.........
& you have no idea what the stack height should be when installing new springs
or that a Proper seat job will will do for you combustion chambeer
it aint about sentence structure........ i thought you wanted good reliable HP
if a war of attrition is racing ..................you racing your ass off
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2008 12:25 PM
quote:
it aint about sentence structure
If that is the case, then you are living the dream. 
Please let us know about your racing results and next engine build. I look forward to reading your updates. 
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 12:30 PM
quote:
quote:
it aint about sentence structure
If that is the case, then you are living the dream.
Please let us know about your racing results and next engine build. I look forward to reading your updates.
Shane
when it comes to wrenching & racing...........................
FAST = WIN
short sentence
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 12:40 PM
again. IM NOT CHANGING MY VALVE GUIDES. there you go in plain english, you cant miss it this time.
if the rings are worn out from a few break in miles and half a dozen weekends of racing, dont you think JE would know about such a failure in ring design? this piston kit is designed for street and racing use. it would not be worn out now.
I DIDNT BREAK ANY VALVES.
stack height with springs? if you know so much about it, fill us all in.
yes. let us know about your race results. what have you done? what are you building?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 12:46 PM
that valve with half of it GONE
BURNED half way thru the stem............
stack height is when all valves in the head donr look like the blue ridge mtns
some hi ...... some low
all of them sitting thesame with essentially the Same Seat Pressures
takes time to get that right
no less using alcohol or kerosene [please dont use gas
lay head flat on table [outside mighty be good] pour enuf fluid over
the valves to see if they leak into the inlet or exhaust tracts
will let you know if you have a good seat seal
lil things we perfectionist know...........................................................& do
even tho our sentence structure is crap
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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flite leader
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posted December 10, 2008 12:51 PM
i could also explain how this not done cause the cam to twist..........
moreso that it usually would
thats why many offer the billetcams..................to keep the twisting
& the resulting harmonics to a minimun
that also keeps the vlkaves from vibrating.............................or doin the St vitus dance
most of the time no where near redline
o dear my sentence structure is bad
i must not know crap
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 12:58 PM
you really really need to take a good look at stuff before you post your opinions. you completely missed the fact that the melted valves werent mine. you completely missed the fact that i had done a leak down and posted the results, and again, you missed the permatex ultra copper.
none of my valves were sunk into the head
my leak down confirmed that my valves sealed quite well except the one that was held open by the spit shim
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 01:08 PM
as i said b4 your sentence structure was Not cohesive
no less i wasnt expressing an opinion
i never said you valves were sunk into your head......................thats funny
but you did comment on seat width...........wider(???) than normal
that fat & they would Have to be sunken........................as most fat things are
(sink into the couch)
no less you keep talking about keeping things cool
not possible as rich as you run.............rich running CAUSES heat
inefficiency causes heat........ get it
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 01:18 PM
you talked about them being different heights. since no seats were changed, you can only go one way to make them uneven and thanks sinking them.
yes when i put in new bronze seats they will have a wider contact are with the valve. thats the way race engines are built for nitrous or turbo applications. ask Jim from competition cnc. since new seats are being put in it wouldnt be hard to have them as high as stock and have a wide seat
running rich cools the motor and heats up the exhaust....get it?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 01:24 PM
running rich does not cool the motor
causes deposits & screws up your ring stack
if you want to guess at you seat pressures.......................w/o checking your stack height
(yeah i reread that.......couldnt believe that 1)
you really dont know what your seat pressures are ! !! ! ! ! !
most race engines want their valves seated as hi towards the piston as possible w/o contact
now if you are goin for the Starbux conversation.......... you win
if you are going for he said she said conversation........... you win
but them is some old rationales that have long since been laid to rest
yeah i know bad english.................................GOOD SENSE
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 01:34 PM
why do pistons melt from running lean? lean does not mean cool!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted December 10, 2008 01:52 PM
quote:
why do pistons melt from running lean? lean does not mean cool!
I hope there is a Wiki on this, or you may not get a reply.
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 01:54 PM
a drag bike runs at redline less than it runs at any rpm
you be punching that shift button or you be goin slow
the load in a tall gear......the air (which is what you are really pushing)
causes load
rocking thru the 1/8 or 1/4 your engine has LESS load than when same bike at maxto......bonneville or the back staright at road atlanta
this is where many folks make the biggest freshman mistake
they tune a maxton run like a drag run
two totally different endeavors......... now i know you are running drag
yet some guys know they are making up a ton of distance & speed towards the big end
yeard ago when a kawi 600..... thats right a 600 years ago
RAN IN THE NINES...............thats NO typo
it was making it up after it got rolling............................towards the big end
in the 9's ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !!
no less if you were to run EGTs ........you would see that you bike would run
faster....cleaner& the TEMPERATURE would be lower if you were to run
it at proper AFR
its also the bugaboooo of inertial dynos
they dont load the engine enuf............................. they do a credible job of getting close
yet that competive edge is usually done at the track
where they top it out........"LOAD IT"
that extra little bit that separates you from the also rans
the inertia dynos are better than nothing & provide a great baseline
at daytona in march........the "Asphalt Dyno" everyone down there will make at least
1 adjustment from the dyno even if it were sitting right there in the pits
that LOAD on the bankin provides somethin sitting on that dyno dont
dude look at all that soot in your engine which keeps down proper ignition
proper flame propagation across the cylinder
you thinkin i just want to blow up you bike
you are close enuf by yourself.......................ive seen diesels cleaner
even you mentioned & i read it your oil is funky in your engine
YOU ARE WASHING YOUR CYLINDER WALLS WITH GASOLINE
ITS GETTING BLOWN BY YOUR RING STACK
ITS DILUTING YOUR OIL.............CRAP OIL ALONE COULD BLOW YOUR ENGINE
years from now you will rember u were told
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 10, 2008 02:05 PM
we already know that you can put the fire out in a cylinder
being toooooo rich & sprayin
that causes problems all its own without hitting the rev limiter
you could get a cylinder wet...... in a tenth of asecond raw fuel & NOS going into a cylinder
how many times.........................
then you have ignition...................................... NOT GOOD
you could lose a rod thru the cases
you could lose the crank
all more expensive than a hole in a piston
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 02:10 PM
you didnt answer the question
ex temp and motor temp are different things. lean heats up a motor but shows cool EGT. rich cools a motor and heats up EGT
what a 600 did years ago has nothing to do with this thread
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 10, 2008 02:13 PM
oh and btw it ran fine at 10.5:1 AFR. i had it leaned out to 11.5:1AFR when the damage happened
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 02:21 PM
tuning has everything to do with this thread
if by example you cant see that
tuning is exactly what we are talking about......... a 600 sure as hell could never
have enuf HP to go into the 9's
it was the tuning & the clean runnin
ex temp and motor temp are different things. lean heats up a motor but shows cool EGT. rich cools a motor and heats up EGT
& if this is what you think so be it
told you about your wilted rings..........less compression
you mentioned you putrid oil.....................
theres enuf sooot in you pictures to black a w va coal miners face & have soot leftover
& exhaust temp will directly effect your motor temp
otherwise what the hell is going on in there
you dont know
you cant learn
a engine runs best wide open..................may not make the most HP but runs best
your runs like it has wet cotton stuff up its azz
a cylinder fills the most at torque peak........ not HP peak
if it toooooo rich it cant do either
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 10, 2008 02:29 PM
show me the time slip of your magic 600 that ran 9s by making it up on the big end
explain how a piston can be melted by a lean condition if its running cooler than if it was running rich
my bike ran 161 mph in the 1/4. tell me how thats running bad
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 02:29 PM
last time i saw this much oil pollution was from a top fuel engine
even then they know change the oil every one......................run 10times
change it 10 times
there are guys that road race..........if they saw an engine this dirty
they would park it
ive seen larry mcbride tear down an engine. in the pits budds creek..........stood
there the whole time cause i wanted to see what he had in it............................CLEAN
even after its been run
if vincent hill can find his old photos.................when he finally had to tear his engine
down...........................few looked better going together
i remember those pics..........................best ever been on this site
putting that much gas + NOS in an engine & NOT burning has ALL of the associated
negatives ive already mentioned
when you are spraying HEAVY ..........................ANY hiccup has consequences
a hole in a piston..............................possible
only if you miss the AFR
still its cheaper than all the others
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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1badzx12r
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posted December 10, 2008 02:36 PM
quote:
a engine runs best wide open..................may not make the most HP but runs best
your runs like it has wet cotton stuff up its azz
a cylinder fills the most at torque peak........ not HP peak
if it toooooo rich it cant do either
wrong bucko
lean is mean
if you look at a TQ curve most bikes fall off at around 9k which is far from WOT
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 02:49 PM
whats a bucko
top cylinder filling takes place at torque peak
torque & HP are totally different & they usually take place at 2 different
places throughtout the rev range
an engine runs best WOT simply becuase it is unencumbered
it can nither reach peak torque or peak HP if it is tooo rich
simply aint possible
no less there are many engines that have redlines all the way to 16k for the street
in other scenarios much higher
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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