Shane661
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posted January 05, 2009 04:37 AM
How Much Suspension Squat?
I am getting a little over 4" of suspension squat when launching the 14. I am not having any traction problems at close to 64" wheelbase.
Can I reduce this amount of squat and still get good traction? I would like to lower the bike quite a bit more, but I need to limit the squat if I am going to do this.
Rather than a mechanical stop, I would like set up the suspension properly. I am thinking of investing in a shock, if it will allow me to reduce suspension travel and enhance traction. Sure, I can notch the swingarm for clearance, etc...but if I can reduce my suspension travel I won't need these band-aids.
Thoughts/suggestions?
Shane
  
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
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posted January 05, 2009 06:16 AM
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted January 05, 2009 06:44 AM
buy a shorter custom built drag shock.
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KZScott
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posted January 05, 2009 09:22 AM
did you see the before and after pics of Pats 14? way less squat and lower, and lots of traction at 69 in wb.
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Shane661
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posted January 05, 2009 09:25 AM
I didn't see the before and after...
I'm wondering if 2-3" is a realistic possibility while maintaning traction? if so, I will likely get a good shock.
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted January 05, 2009 10:53 AM
I'm sort of in the same boat. I was running right at 4" of travel before my rear tire bottomed out. Now with the bigger motor I need to go taller or get the shock right.
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gixxre750
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted January 05, 2009 12:55 PM
pats shock is a stocker revalved/shorten by litz racing through adams performance i believe
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 05, 2009 08:49 PM
Try a little more spring preload or a progressive spring. Remember the shock valving controls the rate that the spring is allowed to move, the spring carries the load (weight). The leverage supplied by the shock link amplifies the load into the shock (controlling the force with less total movement), but your long arm counteracts that. What you have is really a complete unknown and the only way to tune it is by trying some different spring rates or preloads and see what happens. I would recommend this before popping for an expensive shock.
We spent a lot of time messing with the shock and spring on RG's shootout bike.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 05, 2009 09:05 PM
+1
Unless you have the right spring rate, a new shock will be of little added value. It's not like the shock needs to be a very sophisticated piece anyway. The ones I've seen leave Stig's shop have been all about heavy rebound and light compression. Seems a shame to waste a lot of cash on a glorified check valve, especially if the spring rate and preload haven't been sorted.
In roadracing, it's common practice to change the linkage to effect changes to the rear suspension. Have you considered using a different linkage to lower the bike?
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Halvefast
Zone Head
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posted January 05, 2009 09:21 PM
Get a straight link first, then think about re-valving, that is where Ninjaboy is at now.
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NOX
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posted January 05, 2009 10:35 PM
Straight link will get you lower from what I hear, but make sure the shock is set up for it......., it changes the geometry. Shock has to be set up for you application.......
Ninjaboy's set up seems to work real well, but he only runs on very well prepped tracks......
If you run on loose tracks......., that type of set up may not work for you..........
Set it up for what you are doing, not what someone else is doing.
No offense meant to Pat, but you get what I mean........
Make it hook in a carwash, and then no matter where you go, you hook like mad...., even on loose tracks.........
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KZScott
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posted January 06, 2009 10:11 AM
the straight link also makes the spring "act stiffer" too right? I emailed Adams performance about getting a shock done, and they said a re spring usually wasnt needed after a revalve. it was awhile ago, i dont think i saved the email, but i believe i told them my weight and told them i was going to be using a 68in wb. i cant remember if i said flat link or not...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted January 08, 2009 01:16 PM
quote:
I am getting a little over 4" of suspension squat when launching the 14. I am not having any traction problems at close to 64" wheelbase.
Can I reduce this amount of squat and still get good traction? I would like to lower the bike quite a bit more, but I need to limit the squat if I am going to do this.
Rather than a mechanical stop, I would like set up the suspension properly. I am thinking of investing in a shock, if it will allow me to reduce suspension travel and enhance traction. Sure, I can notch the swingarm for clearance, etc...but if I can reduce my suspension travel I won't need these band-aids.
Thoughts/suggestions?
Shane
for your consideration
many lower their bikes...................& the end result is a negative angle
on the swingarm
when launched that angle goes further negative when the shok gives
what you call squat.......................usually far tooooo much
yes you do want "dynamic " weight transfer which happens when the bike squats
too much & even lowered the front wheel comes up..........
the bike goes "less" foward by that degree
think about it ..........with many straight frames
the rear is certainly NOT negative to the chassis
some use straight links & NO shok.......................they also suffer from traction
the bike doesnt wheelie........ doesnt go foward either
it is a balncing act getting a good launch + traction
some think the feel..... look of the wheel coming up is indicative to
big HP & a power launch
while it is probably better that stock
its not the best
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NOX
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posted January 08, 2009 03:05 PM
I cringe as i type this, because I know how one should be set up, but I am asking this to clarify for those that do not know, so that they are not confused.......
What do you mean by negative angle.........
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted January 08, 2009 03:15 PM
if you set your bike up with you on the seat
many lower so much initally that the rear axle is closer to your azz
that the angle between the axle & countersprocket is negative
if it were the other way .........it would be positive
if you built a straight frame bike as many do
it would be in a straight line
by example halvefast's picture shows him lite in the saddle & a lil positive
yours show u negative & your front end up
the more negative...... the more the rear spins
quite a few make this mistake
the more positive..... the bike will hop
few set them up positive.........
the 12 can look broken & weve actually had a few drag their sump plugs off
to some ...... if a little is right
much is better
now i know you have seen those type bikes/riders
if you draw a accurate 90 degree ccross over the rear axle
you will see the exact effects of how your swingarm is situated
its ok if you disagree
im not arguing or starting anything
& i dont mind yoy asking
no less its a consideration with cars
yet if i had an opportunity i could show you
its agreat way to fine tune
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2009 03:25 PM
Flite, thanks for the regurgitation of what you read in another thread. It's always nice to read it for the 2nd time...in broken english. 
Shane
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almost_les
Zone Head
Posts: 590
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posted January 08, 2009 03:27 PM
quote:
Make it hook in a carwash, and then no matter where you go, you hook like mad...., even on loose tracks.........
i keep trying that, but they always call the cops on me whenever i go blasting out of one
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted January 08, 2009 03:27 PM
quote:
Flite, thanks for the regurgitation of what you read in another thread. It's always nice to read it for the 2nd time...in broken english.
Shane
what thread are u talking about ? ? ? ? ?
im not the only one that knows about positive or negative swingarm angles
yet i know not of the thread you speak of
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flite leader
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posted January 08, 2009 03:36 PM
quote:
I cringe as i type this, because I know how one should be set up, but I am asking this to clarify for those that do not know, so that they are not confused.......
What do you mean by negative angle.........
look at it this way
your bike is on a stand rear wheel not touching the ground
& you can move the swiggarm freely thru out its complete arc
up towards the seat & down towards the ground
as you do that you can see the chain would pull it closer to your azz
if it were negative to start with
no less is it werre in a neutral position you would also see that the chain would
be using different drive teeth
this also applies going positive [only motocross riders have to worry about positive drive]
if as i said you were to draw a cross perpendicular to the axle & level to the ground
you would also see a dramatic shift at the tyre
think about & look at it
you dont have to make me right....... ive got it
yet if you look at
IT MAKES SENSE
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flite leader
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posted January 08, 2009 03:45 PM
 Edited By: flite leader on 8 Jan 2009 23:54
quote:
I cringe as i type this, because I know how one should be set up, but I am asking this to clarify for those that do not know, so that they are not confused.......
What do you mean by negative angle.........
in addition
you almost never want to be negative
if you look at the bikes running 7's & 8's
the bike does have an attitude........................still front down azz hi
yet you can draw a line down the swingarm..................[or if its a straight frame[
out past the front axle
you NEVER want to see the front wheel higher than that line
now you dont have to acknowledge what im saying
you dont have to agree
certainly you dont have to change anything on your bike
what i asked you to do......................look at it on paper
check out the photos of the etop racing bikes
we call it "flaggin"....................doesnt matter if you wheelie
some gives you "dynamic" weight transfer....... thats a GOOG thing
too much & the energy going up......"flaggin" is the energy/HP NOT taking you foward
LOST time & wasted energy
you asked ......... now Think about it
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted January 08, 2009 04:01 PM
quote:
Flite, thanks for the regurgitation of what you read in another thread. It's always nice to read it for the 2nd time...in broken english.
Shane
again i ask...... cut & paste where ive plagarized anyone post or thread
if you had read it b4 ...........& understood the other thread/post
you wouldnt have asked your question
shows how little you know about "squat"
i was contributing
you just want to be an azz
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted January 08, 2009 04:08 PM
heres another way to look at it
if you are somewhat..........neytral & then you launch the arm goes more negative
not so bad
if you are already negative or the sabe
the swingarm will go more negative.......... not good
no less if you look at it closely
its also tryin to shorten your wheelbase when the swingarm is negative........
or subsequently goes negative
affecting the chassis & traction
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
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posted January 08, 2009 04:12 PM
I actually understood all of that and took some good information from it.
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2009 05:24 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jan 2009 02:06
quote:
quote:
Flite, thanks for the regurgitation of what you read in another thread. It's always nice to read it for the 2nd time...in broken english.
Shane
if you had read it b4 ...........& understood the other thread/post
you wouldnt have asked your question
shows how little you know about "squat"
i was contributing
you just want to be an azz
I am not spending an hour digging up an old thread that you just puked up.
Thanks.
Shane
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Stuart Racing
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posted January 08, 2009 06:09 PM
quote:
I actually understood all of that and took some good information from it.
Same here.....
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