Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted December 27, 2008 11:24 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 27 Dec 2008 23:14
Flight, KZ can not ever again see any of your posts, he put you on his ignore list. From what I understand you can not take people off the ignore list.
Can someone verrify this?
Karl, will you do Flite a favor and explain to him what "squish" is. 
Flite, exactly why cant those pistons be used again?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
   
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 27, 2008 11:38 AM
i know what squish is
& to answer you other question
steel samcking aluminum......................not good
no less there is "Spalling " where the pins are..........not good
& he can ignore what ever he chooses.......................
i only spoke to his pix & about valves...... pistons.......... heads.....................
then he bitched up
anint nuthin i said & right or true
anint nuthin i said will cost him a motor
& the deeper he goes the worse it ........................aint because he is sprayin
simply because it wont put together right
valves hittin head
pistons hittin head
piston pins
all on a 300 hp motor.........if it was just HP or even spray
you couldnt get to 4..... 5..... 6oo HP motors
simply wouldnt be possible
on spray..... turbo or fallin off a clift[only good for 140mph]
he wants to be the man.........................& ALL PROPS
THEN PUT TOGEHTHER SOMETHING OTHER THAN A SPAGHETTI
& WHAT ABOUT PHOTOS OF THE BOTTOM END ? ? ? ???
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 27, 2008 12:22 PM
Flite,
You know just enough to be really annoying. You do have a unique writing style, though.
The indication that the pistons couldn't be re-used lies in the top ring groove. If the land is collapsed and the ring does not rotate freely, then they are damaged. If not, there is no reason not to re-use.
Oh WAIT! I get it! You're a POET! Or maybe a Rap Artist? Add in a little more rhyme and work it!
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 27, 2008 12:33 PM
my style has nothing to do with the facts
dont know how you can clean up the piston pin holes,,,,,,,,
unless you have oversize piston pins ? ? ? ? ? ?
wheres the poetry
no less i dont see or know of a way to spall the aluminum
PAST the piston pin circlip.................................please explain
i have not a problem of personality & if there is a difference in POV
or approach.........................not an issue
but you of all people making it personal.....................
then anbswer me one question
where has my assessment been wrong
bad shims
bad valves
valves hitting pistons
bad piston rings
pistons hitting head
& we havent gotten to the bottom end yet
you would use them again...............................i wouldnt
thats not a right or wrong
simply a matter of preference
smacking aluminum with steel does not imbue me with reliabilty or confidence
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 27, 2008 02:03 PM
Sorry, couldn't resist. I was weak.
But, I have a suggestion. Personally, I find it easier to ask/answer one thing at a time. Above, you asked how it is possible to "fix" the pin bores. I can answer that. The ugliness in the pin bores results from high loads allowing the steel pin to contact the aluminum in the piston, "grab it" and tear the surface. This kind of damage is known as galling or spalling. It's a "mechanical" failure of the material from localized loads rather than a heat related one. The tearing of the aluminum causes local heat and the aluminum adheres to the pin. Left unattended,none of the parts would be usable, but these aren't that bad.
The result is that the tearing of the aluminum leaves holes in the pin bore surface as well as "bunched up" areas of the aluminum. When you run a hone through the pin bore, you remove the high spots and restore the roundness of the bore. The depressions left in the surface matter not. All that is required for a healthy pin bore / pin relationship is a smooth pin, a round bore with correct clearance (.001-.0015 in a race engine) and some oil.
Over time (and seeing a lot of failures or near failures) you can develop a sense of what is perfectly usable and what is not.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 27, 2008 03:29 PM
Jim is correct(hes ALLWAYS CORRECT) I cant see any of flites posts. (so dont bother posting in the threads i start flite, i cant see your random babbling bull shit anyway)
Doug, the top ring groove is fine
thank you for the detailed explanation of how the damage occured and how to correct it 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 27, 2008 05:54 PM
Let's start at the top: How do you have a bad shim?
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted December 28, 2008 06:56 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 28 Dec 2008 14:58
KZ, we still learn stuff all the time here at the shop. We expieriment and try things that dont always give us the results we were looking for. So were not always right
The engine building info I post is common knowledge really. Any number of guys on this board could post the same thing.
I enjoy reading posts from many board members. Theres a lot of knowledge on this board.
Flite seems like he reads a lot of internet b/s and repeats it as factual even thou it has no real detail or substance and he has no real expierience. A sure sign of a book worm. He talks way over his head without true understanding.
Kinda like a 17 year old kid thats been reading HotRod for 2 years.
Mark Twain in the 1800's wrote this.....
"When I was 17 my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand the man.
When I turned 21 I was amaized at how much he had learned in 4 years"
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 28, 2008 11:42 AM
CORRECTION
I was re-reading some of these posts and realized that I threw out some incorrect numbers in my post about squish.
Well, the numbers were right but the engines were wrong. The .035" I cited was a number that was burned in my brain from my big block Chevy days. I went and checked some of my build sheets for my Bonneville ZX-11.The tightest one was actually .015" and my notes say "very light contact". That was only a 77mm bore, so considering the much larger bore on Karl's 1427 ZX-12, his .027 makes perfect sense. A 500 inch Chevy is 4.45" or 113mm which required a much more generous squish. Jim, you shoulda' called me on that!
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 28, 2008 12:53 PM
quote:
CORRECTION Jim, you shoulda' called me on that!
Doug
Jim is polite to seniors 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted December 28, 2008 03:59 PM
Doug, I try and be carefull recomending numbers to the masses that I might feal is ok running in my engine. So when you recomended a more conservative number for squish, I think nothing of it. I agree with recomending a more conservative number like .035" , its what I'd recomend to most people.
My squish and piston to intake valve numbers I run would scare the hair off a cat. I've discussed it with Karl before and even he was a little shocked.
In one of my other posts I forgot to say to add the Pin, Rod and Main clearances +.001" for every inch of rod to the numbers when setting the squish.
So .0015" + .0022 + .002 + .0046" from a measured .027" over the pin, and say a +.005" max piston rock on the thrust side will yield aprox .0117" when cold. Get a little carbon buildup and she knocks (piston hiting head) cold. When hot you take away .004" of rock from the pistons expansion and she runs quiet.
Run the engine fat on the fuel for a while and build up excessive carbon and she can even knock hot.
Guys dont rev a cold engine with hypoeutectic forged ( JE) pistons. Not that you should with stock pistons but....
I need another beer now...
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted December 28, 2008 04:05 PM
OOPS, forgot to point out one thing... the piston usually hits the head on overlap not compression, thats why you need to take the mechanical extremes into account.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 28, 2008 05:28 PM
Split my cases today. Imo the bearings look ok. They are better than last time anyway (po used plastigauge and had some sizes wrong...it ran for 2 seasons like that though)
And after some 15 sec of 2000 grit sand paper.
The rods look like they picked up some material from the bearing shells. This is #1 (the one that had the major piston to valve contact) You can see some tiny raised bumps, I could work a bit more at it and clean the bumps off but since im having them resized why bother?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 28, 2008 07:04 PM
I spray the backs of the bearing shells with some moly spray before assembly. It cuts down on the metal transfer.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 28, 2008 08:24 PM
hmmm I put them in dry. I believe it was Tim who said i should? the manual says to use molly grease i believe. my uncle had some trouble with bearings in his drag vette, still apart, undetermined cause, but he greased his bearing shell backs, so i tried them dry(assembly lube on the crank)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 28, 2008 11:06 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 29 Dec 2008 07:15
Yeah, most of the factory roadrace power-up manuals that I've read have racing-specific assembly procedures that differ slightly from the pedestrian service manuals. Installing the rod bearing shells dry, after an acetone wipe-down, seems to be the method-du-jour. As it was told to me, it's better to have a high-friction rod/bearing interface to discourage spinning at that interface.
Scott - I think your bearings look damn good, BTW. Do you remember what clearances you used?
I usually use slightly worn green Scotchbrite pads and motor oil to clean the residue from inside the rod big ends. Fresh Scotchbrite pads are too aggressive, even on steel rods, and the oil helps keep the grit in suspension. Roll the pad around your finger and rotate it as you pull it across the journal, then flip the rod and repeat. Leaves a nice, satin cross-hatch.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 29, 2008 08:57 AM
Tim, my target was .053mm on the mains and and the rods were closer to .06mm (good thing i wrote that down )
nice trick with the scothbrite pads
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 29, 2008 11:21 AM
quote:
Sorry, couldn't resist. I was weak.
But, I have a suggestion. Personally, I find it easier to ask/answer one thing at a time. Above, you asked how it is possible to "fix" the pin bores. I can answer that. The ugliness in the pin bores results from high loads allowing the steel pin to contact the aluminum in the piston, "grab it" and tear the surface. This kind of damage is known as galling or spalling. It's a "mechanical" failure of the material from localized loads rather than a heat related one. The tearing of the aluminum causes local heat and the aluminum adheres to the pin. Left unattended,none of the parts would be usable, but these aren't that bad.
The result is that the tearing of the aluminum leaves holes in the pin bore surface as well as "bunched up" areas of the aluminum. When you run a hone through the pin bore, you remove the high spots and restore the roundness of the bore. The depressions left in the surface matter not. All that is required for a healthy pin bore / pin relationship is a smooth pin, a round bore with correct clearance (.001-.0015 in a race engine) and some oil.
Over time (and seeing a lot of failures or near failures) you can develop a sense of what is perfectly usable and what is not.
Doug
thanks doug........ i know you couldnt resist
it waas out of character
yes 1 thing at a time is always better & YES i Know what spalling is
& as evidenced by the photos in every hole.................uncharcteristic
& in different ways
i would rather build to avoid all of these circumstances
that it is already evidenced i would do whatever necessary to prevent any occurence again
1- being i would reuse already specious parts
2- i would UPgrade my assembly techniques
let me ask you this
would you as a pilot run an engine like this one
would you fly it with confidence
if someone from a certified rebuild center sent you an engine
& long b4 it was close to rebuild
it had 6- 8 serious problems.......... would you be concerned
now that we both know ALL of the answers to the Above ?s
my last ? is after assembly of the pistons in the cylinder......
rods attached...........dropped onto the cases [as he said thats the way he would do it ! ! ! !]
last ?
how can he possibly check the piston skirt to crank clearance
i know ther has to be a way[ he dont know it] ........ but HOW ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
you & i both know on 4 stroke.... 4 & 6 cylinder aircraft engines
assembly to accepted practices results in reliabilty
ive never seen one engine EVER that had these many problems
EVER
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 29, 2008 03:22 PM
Flite,
you are a fukken idiot.
Yes, skirt to crank could be an issue, so can pin boss to crank counter balancer be an issue, but the assembly method has no bearing on the checking. The pistons, rods, crank and upper case MUST be assembled to do this check.
You are just a fukken idiot
I have no doubt you have never seen so many problems;
you have never seen ANY problems.
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
sick o' yr diarrhea
(please god, hear my prayer, flite is fishing... he is NOT that persistently dumb, is he?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 29, 2008 03:32 PM
Edited By: flite leader on 29 Dec 2008 23:35
quote:
Flite,
you are a fukken idiot.
Yes, skirt to crank could be an issue, so can pin boss to crank counter balancer be an issue, but the assembly method has no bearing on the checking. The pistons, rods, crank and upper case MUST be assembled to do this check.
You are just a fukken idiot
I have no doubt you have never seen so many problems;
you have never seen ANY problems.
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
repeat AFTER me
Flite's a web wanna-be
sick o' yr diarrhea
(please god, hear my prayer, flite is fishing... he is NOT that persistently dumb, is he?
glad ive got your support
yet in a stroker engine its a major consideration
in a stock or over bore ..............not
scott did mention the stroke job & that assembly method
if you are sayin just buy parts ..... put them together & run em
essentially "plug & play" w/o checkin clearances
that takes engine building/assembly to new high
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 29, 2008 04:04 PM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Dec 2008 00:05
Flite says:
"if you are sayin just buy parts ..... put them together & run em
essentially "plug & play" w/o checkin clearances
that takes engine building/assembly to new high"
*******************************************************************************
I say Flite's A FISHIN' MAROON!
More diarrhea, Flite, more diarrhea, give us your best chunks!
Of course you can just buy parts and assemble them, why couldn't you?
It's impossible that a vendor would sell you parts which don't work with other vendor's parts. IMPOSSIBLE!
(i'm waiting for motor to completely cool for heat cycle #2 or I wouldn't waste my time tapping this )
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 29, 2008 04:11 PM
quote:
Flite says:
"if you are sayin just buy parts ..... put them together & run em
essentially "plug & play" w/o checkin clearances
that takes engine building/assembly to new high"
*******************************************************************************
I say Flite's A FISHIN' MAROON!
More diarrhea, Flite, more diarrhea, give us your best chunks!
Of course you can just buy parts and assemble them, why couldn't you?
It's impossible that a vendor would sell you parts which don't work with other vendor's parts. IMPOSSIBLE!
(i'm waiting for motor to completely cool for heat cycle #2 or I wouldn't waste my time tapping this )
guy you know you are wrong
a vendor sells parts within parametres
he doesnt know if you are assembling correctly
if you have the right gaskets
or if you skimmed the head.............................no one sells that many combinations
that you could buy pistons from 4-5 different vendors...... use possibly 3 diff head gaskets
a stroker crank in 2 or 3 configurations & get rods from 4 or 4 diff vendors
mix ..... match put them together & run em
with diff piston pin heights.................surely you are joking
if i were passing crap like this i would expect tail gunning
a snot nosed kid 2 weeks into auto 101 knows better
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 29, 2008 04:20 PM
Karl, life is so much better with flite on your ignore list. i think everybody should try it!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 29, 2008 04:25 PM
you can ignore ...... that troubles me little
telling me that anyone should assemble a hi performance racing engine
from a grab bag of parts
without checking the clearances is specious !
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 29, 2008 05:02 PM
quote:
you can ignore ...... that troubles me little
telling me that anyone should assemble a hi performance racing engine
from a grab bag of parts
without checking the clearances is specious !
Flite,
you are wrong!
All parts fit all other parts, they wouldn't sell them if they didn't fit.
What planet are you from?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC