entropy
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posted September 20, 2002 09:31 AM
BA,
I have done every combination of steels posible and I have the same situation as you. The addition of even a 1.4 EVEN when the clutch has worn fibers results in too much stack to disengage fully. Cable adj certainly does not cure it for me. All I can guess is that different bikes have different depths in the basket. I have all kinds of measurements if you are interested.
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 10:48 AM
OK guys... Tried the 2.0-1.6 steels side by side in the center of the clutch pack and the clutch felt good! After two trips to the strip, I took apart the clutches today and was suprised to find no steels or fibers are burned up (No blueing at all)  Also, I noticed there is more oil on the fibers and steels as well. I'm guessing that grinding approx. 40th off the puller rod allowed more oil into the basket Thanks for the tidbits
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 10:53 AM
One more question, There is a cone steel washer and a thin steel washer followed by a thin fiber plate. I got rid of the thin fiber plate and used a standard fiber plate. My question is should I use the cone shaped steel washer and the thin steel washer cause I elminated them
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CrotchRocket
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posted September 29, 2002 02:59 PM
The flat and cone shaped rings are in the clutch basket to prevent clutch chatter on the ZX12s!!!
The Hayabusa never had those rings and had lots of chatter, so Brock Davidson made up his own clutch kit and put similar rings in his kit, making the clutch better!!!
For us 12 guys it turns out that our clutch chatter wasnt the same, so Muzzy made his clutch kit and guys got rid of the rings and small friction and switched it with the regular friction along with the 6 2000 ZX6r clutch springs and now our clutch is pretty much chatter free!!!...So the proper set up is now getting rid of the rings, and just using 11 all same frictions and 10 2.0 steels...
Ken...Just take your time practicing on the 12...It's hard going from the 12 to the Busa!!!...I'll tell you this, when you get the 12 down to 8.90s and consistant 1.50 60's, the Busa will be real easy to ride!!!
The 12 riders are better because it's harder to ride then the Busa!!!...Angi knows that to be true!!!
Ride Safe!!!
CrotchRocket
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 03:55 PM
I agree CrotchRocket, the 12 is harder to ride than the Busa. Hopfully once i get this suspension and tire issue worked out, I'll be able to get back to the 1.5's I was pulling before and being consistant instead of fighting the bike I think I got this clutch problem figure out. Now I've got until the end of October to have the other two issues to worry about
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posted September 29, 2002 06:55 PM
Ok....well Ive got a 2.25 stack height...with 11fibers and 10 2.0 steels and from a stop...slipping the clutch causes the whole damn bike to shudder and chatter.
Its annoying as all hell and was killing me off the line this weekend at maxton. the clutch isnt slipping at all up top even on spray..nor does it make any noise or vibration after the first 60' or so...wtf could be causing the problem from a stop??
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 07:07 PM
 Edited By: kzz1 on 29 Sep 2002 20:09
YCIS...Come to think about it ,I noticed the same thing and its only when I take off? Did you remove those thin washers like I did?
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NINJA12
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posted September 29, 2002 07:12 PM
My guess would be DRY clutches. keep us posted.
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 07:19 PM
HMMM? My clutches aren't dry anymore. At least there is more oil on them since the pusher mod. But like YCIS said, I'm having similar problems?
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posted September 29, 2002 07:30 PM
well..I have to take the bike apart...so Ill take the clutch apart too. I dunno about dry clutches...when I "attempted" to restack my original clutch plates with a few new ones after it started to slip...it was chattering then too from a stop...and those plates were well oiled and used. The exact same issue with all brand new fibers/steels.
I figured I fucked something up in the stack...but I cant think what it might be.
You start with a fiber (back) and end with a fiber (front) for a total of 11 fibers and 10 steels right? No "springs" or thin fibers at all.
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kzz1
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posted September 29, 2002 07:50 PM
YCIS.. Start with a fiber, end with a fiber. Now what I did was add a 1.6 steel back to back with a 2.0 in the center of the clutch pack.
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BA
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posted September 30, 2002 12:00 PM
YCIS, did you soak your fibers in oil for a few hours or overnight before installing them?? It's good practice.
Your install of fiber first, fiber last is right.
Your symptom just sounds like a dry clutch, (or a warped steel) but since we know that you've got the thick steels (no 1.4's or 1.6's) and they're new so they shouldn't have any warpage to them. Is your puller shaft thing ground? I can't remember if you've done that.
So far, I've never broken the 'small' fiber, and I still run the washer/spring thing. No problems to speak of yet...... (fingers crossed!)
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CrotchRocket
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posted October 05, 2002 08:48 PM
I have noticed that when I tilt the 2000 12 to the right side with it off while waiting to go to the burnout box, I dont get the chatter at the start!!!
When I dont tilt the 2000 12 and go straight to the burnout box, I get the chatter at the start!!!
On the 2002 there is NO CHATTER AT ALL...For those of you that never saw the 2002 clutch set up here it is...
The 1st. fiber is the small one with the 2 rings...Then the middle of the pack fiber is another small one with the 2 rings!!!...The Hub is not drilled out but has 6 holes just a little bigger then a round pen cap and is located on the hub that goes againt the Basket...Sorry I dont have pics, but if you compare the pics of the hub in the 2000 and 2002 manuals then you will see what I am talking about!!!
The 2002 clutch is perfect!!!
CrotchRocket
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posted October 05, 2002 10:03 PM
Im pulling my new clutch apart tomorrow to look at it....perhaps it is a "too dry" issue. While I didnt "Soak" the clutch plates before putting them in...I did cover them in oil and work the clutch lever prior to running the bike...we shall see :/
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BA
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posted October 06, 2002 06:12 PM
ya gotta soak'em bro'. Hope it helps out.
CROTCH!! I'm ordering an extra set of those 2 damn washer/spring things to test in my 2000 bike! Thanks for the tip.
Would be awesome if someone could post a picture of that 2002 hub!
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INTRA
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posted October 06, 2002 06:18 PM
BA, did you see my 2000 model hub pics(how they drilled it)?
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kzz1
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posted October 06, 2002 06:24 PM
Taking off about .040 off the puller rod gave me more oil in the basket. I'd say its a good mod to the 2000 12's.
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posted October 06, 2002 07:41 PM
Just outta curiosity...why do they have to be soaked?? Not that I dont believe you (im going to do it this time)..but the bike comes from the factory with no oil right? I can pretty much say with all certainty that the stealership doesnt take the clutch apart and soak it before they give it to ya..lol.
Why do the stock clutches survive without being soaked?
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BA
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posted October 07, 2002 01:39 PM
INTRA, not only did I SEE your pic's......I printed that sucker off on a color printer! 
Gives me something to show my dealer when I call upon them to fix my stocker!
YCIS... Somehow I knew, or could expect, that you might question the pre-oiling thing! hehe I was the same way....
My thoughts are this:
1. It's probably not fair to compare our crap-ass clutch with other good, wet clutch systems out there. Ours is way to DRY, plain and simple. (IMHO)
2. The fibers will soak up oil overnight, and it will just enhance the probability that your clutch doesn't chatter. Just like the tilting to the right before a drag race to get oil on them.
3. By keeping the chatter and "grippy-ness" of those pads down, you can get more consistency in a drag-launch when slipping the clutch. (ever drag race, and *really* slip a stock clutch? Chatter-city big time, in less than 4 runs)
4. Brock says do it.
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posted October 07, 2002 03:10 PM
haha...they are soakin now....thanks again bud!
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ra12r
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posted October 07, 2002 07:18 PM
YCIS, after you drive your bike about 5 miles, your clutches will be back to the way they were.......lol Centrifigual forces act to "spin dry" your pack.
Your chatter is probably related to your stack height. I have tried to read the post to figure your issue out.
1)Are you determining proper stack height by using the visual distance before your pressure plate bottoms out?!
2)are you offsetting your outside fiber?! Don't offset!!!
3)Make sure you do not have that inner spring and skinny fiber. Add the schnitz racing springs ALL SIX or ALL SIX zx6 springs. NOT 3 and 3 but do ALL 6!!!!!
4)OH one more thing if you have drilled your hub, check to make sure all your steels are sliding freely.
5)If you still have chatter after all that,,,,,,then make sure your cable is not binding or pull pin is not sticking....
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krexken
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posted October 07, 2002 08:46 PM
My stack height is about .010 over spec with the Muzzy setup and an extra 1.6 steel in there. I had the stack height much higher than that previously and it worked fine for 5k and never had to touch it. My problem with it was it was hard to get the clutch from pushing me through the tree and still have free play. With my new setup much closer to spec, I don't have that problem anymore. I did notice the clutch chattering though. This is with all used parts so I'm assuming it's the two steels back to back doing the chattering. I can live with it though. My puller has two flat spots. Don't think windage is a problem and my clutch has never slipped.
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posted October 08, 2002 05:08 AM
Ra..thanks for the tips...in response
1)Are you determining proper stack height by using the visual distance before your pressure plate bottoms out?!
No..I measured 2.25" total stack height..beginning and ending with a fiber plate...the basket teeth sit about midway to the top of the pressure plate when installed..(Ill post pics tonight)
2)are you offsetting your outside fiber?! Don't offset!!!
No offset.
3)Make sure you do not have that inner spring and skinny fiber. Add the schnitz racing springs ALL SIX or ALL SIX zx6 springs. NOT 3 and 3 but do ALL 6!!!!!
Both Skinny fibers (yea mine had 2) and all 4 springs were removed from the bike. Ive been using 6 ZX6R springs even on the stock clutch plates for quite some time..perhaps they are worn out...but I think that would have been an issue earlier..not just when putting the new plates back in.
4)OH one more thing if you have drilled your hub, check to make sure all your steels are sliding freely.
Hub isnt drilled...nor was the puller shaft. However I had a fight between my dremel and puller shaft last night..the shaft lost
5)If you still have chatter after all that,,,,,,then make sure your cable is not binding or pull pin is not sticking....
You might be onto something here...Steve pointed out that after all my "adjustment" that the "adjuster" down on the clutch didnt look right...basically there were too many threads showing on the BACK side of the attachment rather than the front. I did notice that it was pretty much in the middle when I took it apart. *shrug..I dunno...we shall see tonight.
Thanks again
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BA
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posted October 08, 2002 01:05 PM
It's about time you had your shaft drilled YCIS. I highly recommend it! hehehe
....and it's painless too!
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CrotchRocket
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posted October 08, 2002 04:09 PM
I missed the post on drilling the puller shaft!!!...Where do you drill the shaft???
CrotchRocket
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