Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 13, 2008 03:06 PM
quote:
Hey, MR Shane, are you and yr lovely sidekick gonna come to Texas this year??
We've talked about it....I would give a cautious "YES" at this point! 
Shane
  
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted December 13, 2008 07:47 PM
if you want to do what you describe my friends that run or have run the 10.5 tire class log crank,input shaft of tranny and output of tranny.thier loggers read this for enguagement on launch.i do not know if they watch a front wheel. it would not work out well in the beginning anyway with wheels up at start.
for us mount a sensor on the clutch basket gear. the issues will be how much frequency the input channel can take and then hope for traction. logging the front will not work since most of us have the front up in the area we want to look for clutch slip.
they got a good picture on the car. and with our hp and his if it spins on launch it is up in smoke anyway. all else you may as well concider your self hooked up. even though i bet if there is a high speed camara it would show some slip.
for me when the 60ft math does not work it is the clutch and sofar it has pointed to the clutch every time.(remember my barnett issues the beginning of the year?)
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted December 13, 2008 07:51 PM
I think the only way to actually measure the wheel spin is to measure wheel speed on the front tire and rear tire and compare the speeds. there may be a difference in tire growth , but I think that you would see the wheel spin easily. a couple of magnets on the front rotor and a sensor is pretty easy to hook up. I use an Accel DFI O2 controller / data logger and that can sample 200 hz. It has 3 digital inputs for logging as well as the O2.
you can measure clutch slip by comparing rpm and the speed sensor. a digital input is much more accurate
from my experience , you will see double digit slip with a good shot of nitrous.
here is what the rpm looks like on a run. you can see i missed 2nd gear , but the rpm spikes are showing how bumpy the track is
Roy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 14, 2008 03:51 AM
quote:
from my experience , you will see double digit slip with a good shot of nitrous.
Yeah, but we are talking about over the bumps, right? Like we discussed at the track, I really think you will see a big improvement if you adjust the suspension so that the wheel follows the road instead of hopping over the bumps. I'd be interetested in seeing that comparison data.
There sure are a lot of bumps. 
Shane
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted December 14, 2008 08:22 PM
you would need to do it like a car........, input shaft, vs output shaft, and also wheel speed.
But, if the tire slips........, the clutch is not, for the most part.
With a single stage lock up like you have, not worth in my opinion.
Do the other mods to the bike before you go nuts..........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 15, 2008 11:39 AM
quote:
quote:
from my experience , you will see double digit slip with a good shot of nitrous.
Yeah, but we are talking about over the bumps, right? Like we discussed at the track, I really think you will see a big improvement if you adjust the suspension so that the wheel follows the road instead of hopping over the bumps. I'd be interetested in seeing that comparison data.
There sure are a lot of bumps.
Shane
teeeee heeeeee heeeeee
i was told that 8% slip was not the case
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 15, 2008 11:46 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Dec 2008 19:50
quote:
i was told that 8% slip was not the case
It's not the case. Sure, if your bike is set up to where it hops over the bumps...the tire is going to spin while airborne. Hopping over the bumps is not constant-rate wheelspin...and you can even see that in the log.
8% real wheelspin at the traps would require a gearing change of at least 2-3 rear sprocket teeth in order to compensate. I race at Maxton, and I can tell you (the internet racer) that there is nowhere near 8% wheelspin at the traps.
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 15, 2008 11:54 AM
quote:
quote:
i was told that 8% slip was not the case
It's not the case. Sure, if your bike is set up to where it hops over the bumps...the tire is going to spin while airborne. Hopping over the bumps is not constant-rate wheelspin...and you can even see that in the log.
8% real wheelspin at the traps would require a gearing change of at least 2-3 rear sprocket teeth in order to compensate. I race at Maxton, and I can tell you (the internet racer) that there is nowhere near 8% wheelspin at the traps.
Shane
there are others that will tell you different
that traction is a factor at maxton
have seen vincent & a few more post on that
& thats really EZ to long......front wheel vs rear
& except there are places at maxton the front wheel aint on the ground
you know that
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 15, 2008 12:01 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
i was told that 8% slip was not the case
It's not the case. Sure, if your bike is set up to where it hops over the bumps...the tire is going to spin while airborne. Hopping over the bumps is not constant-rate wheelspin...and you can even see that in the log.
8% real wheelspin at the traps would require a gearing change of at least 2-3 rear sprocket teeth in order to compensate. I race at Maxton, and I can tell you (the internet racer) that there is nowhere near 8% wheelspin at the traps.
Shane
there are others that will tell you different
that traction is a factor at maxton
have seen vincent & a few more post on that
& thats really EZ to long......front wheel vs rear
& except there are places at maxton the front wheel aint on the ground
you know that
You really don't know Maxton. You don't know the track. You don't know the bikes. You don't know the people. Therefore you cannot put what you read in the proper context.
Traction is a factor at every racetrack. And it is a factor at Maxton. Just not to the degree of 8% wheelspin at the traps.
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 15, 2008 12:22 PM
thanks for tellin me what i dont know
then you say its a factor
at maxton some have found traction thru the gears to be problematic
a serious factor getting up to speed
you can detract yet you dont have a figure....................................
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 15, 2008 12:28 PM
quote:
you can detract yet you dont have a figure....................................
If you would actually read, you would see that I did place a figure of roughly 2.5%. Entropy said he figures to have around 3.5%. We discussed, earlier in the thread, that his extended wheelbase may account for some of the difference.
If you would spend more time reading to learn, as opposed to reading to argue, you might actually learn something. And that applies universally across threads. You have nothing to offer us regarding Maxton experience and track conditions.
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 15, 2008 12:34 PM
quote:
quote:
you can detract yet you dont have a figure....................................
If you would actually read, you would see that I did place a figure of roughly 2.5%. Entropy said he figures to have around 3.5%. We discussed, earlier in the thread, that his extended wheelbase may account for some of the difference.
If you would spend more time reading to learn, as opposed to reading to argue, you might actually learn something. And that applies universally across threads. You have nothing to offer us regarding Maxton experience and track conditions.
Shane
i saw both guesstimates............................... just that guesses
you argued that it was 8 yet maybe it could 1/2
& I MORE THAN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted December 15, 2008 03:27 PM
Dude, what is your problem........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted December 15, 2008 03:31 PM
wow here we go he is yelling in caps.
flite: i do not want to piss you off that said one on of my posts (i do not remember what one) out of no ware you posted a reply that made me say who the hell is this guy. never herd you before and acts like i am a child in knolage (do not bust on my spelling please). then over the course of time it happens again and again. no one knows who you are or what your credencials are at all. so some are going to have a hard time. then you type to the point that it hurts to follow you. now it is better (thanks sort of).
why don't you try to come across a different way sort of softer and not tooting your horn and pumping your chest with i got knolage too. it seems you do but you (to me anyway) are hard to figure out what. thet being said anyone can read all the posts and remember what they all said and seem to know about this or that.phant just wants to know what you ride, its mods ets how fast it is or you think it is. that is it. we do not need anyone to be that guy everyone dislikes cause they argue everything like seems to be going on now.
kz knows he was a bit rich said it him self leave it go. i know i was a bit lean and now am working twards 12.9ish.
just be cool and relax. and do not be that guy no one likes (do not give me that i do not need any friends either) peace.
phant will u get mad if i say i have a fully programable ecu also?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted December 15, 2008 04:53 PM
Wheelspin on a naturally aspirated bike at Bonneville has always proven to be right at 5%,. I would expect less on pavement assuming the bike has reached top speed or nearly so.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 15, 2008 08:58 PM
getting back to the original topic.... 99% of the time I listen to you Karl, but I would like to try it anyway, just because (sometimes i just have to learn the hard way)
I think it actually slips a lot in first, not excessivly as that would burn up plates, (and i dont do that) but maybe enough to read with 10 samples per sec. you were launching at a lower rpm and letting your stroker high CR torque get you off the line right? my launch is a bit of a different style as I dont have that (excuse my language) "busa-like" torque to power me off the line, I use rpm and slip to get me moving. enough slip to keep rpm up and not bog.
do you have a schematic for the rr box? maybe i could have one put together, or better yet, if you still have the old one and arent using it, want to sell it?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 16, 2008 12:23 AM
quote:
getting back to the original topic.... 99% of the time I listen to you Karl, but I would like to try it anyway, just because (sometimes i just have to learn the hard way)
I think it actually slips a lot in first, not excessivly as that would burn up plates, (and i dont do that) but maybe enough to read with 10 samples per sec. you were launching at a lower rpm and letting your stroker high CR torque get you off the line right? my launch is a bit of a different style as I dont have that (excuse my language) "busa-like" torque to power me off the line, I use rpm and slip to get me moving. enough slip to keep rpm up and not bog.
do you have a schematic for the rr box? maybe i could have one put together, or better yet, if you still have the old one and arent using it, want to sell it?
KZ,
sell it? sell it?
hell no i won't SELL it.
But I will GIVE it to you!
Still have the box all wired up, with original RR set up directions.
I love experiments!
only condition is to post up results & give RR the kudos he deserves for making the box & directions.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 16, 2008 06:16 AM
Edited By: KZScott on 16 Dec 2008 14:17
I can/will do that let me know how much it is to ship. no rush, I cant use it till spring
thanks! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 16, 2008 09:06 AM
quote:
I can/will do that let me know how much it is to ship. no rush, I cant use it till spring
thanks!
when it's shipping to you, it's FREE!
BTW: RR's instructions are on a floppy 
I don't know anyone who has a floppy drive.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 16, 2008 10:04 AM
well ill have to figure out something to say thanks. trust me ill come up with something
wow holy old school.. floppy drive. no problem though, I have a "vintage" shop computer that has just enough computing power to run log works and the power commander software lol. circa 1991. how its running windows xp is a mystery
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted December 16, 2008 10:29 AM
What about the prog16 program? Doesn't he need one of those to reflash the ECU?
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted December 16, 2008 11:12 AM
Edited By: shiphteey on 16 Dec 2008 19:19
The slip I've seen at TX Mile, Maxton, etc are about on par with what Entropy and Shane have said: 2ish to 3ish %.
NOT what Flite Leader said (8%....haha maybe on a big turbo bike or a huge shot of nitrous).
Flite leader, here I am making a pass at just under 203 mph. 30-40 shot of nitrous. Gearing was 18/45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYtd4ThadA8&feature=channel_page
Stock gearing 18/46 is about 201-202 mph in theory, in reality its about 196.
Bonneville I went 207-208 with a tail wind on the rev limiter 18/44 gearing. BEND YOUR MIND BABY!
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 16, 2008 01:52 PM
Tim, Im not familar with that program?
Ali, nice data WITH proof
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted December 16, 2008 04:17 PM
If YOU are not slipping the clutch and it is a HEALTHY clutch, it is NOT a slipping clutch, especially in the lower gears.
I've looked at a lot of data over the years from some very sophisticated data acquisition systems and I firmly believe in that statement.
But then, that's just me.....
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 16, 2008 04:26 PM
I have a very "NOX-like" clutch tune Doug. he has guided me in setting it up. I dont slip it in first, the lock up does
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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