KZScott
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posted December 12, 2008 03:46 PM
total seal rings
anyone using them? Im thinking they would help a big nitrous application? do they last as long as normal rings? (meaning are they streetable?) do I just need to replace my top ring or do they come in a full set? i am of course talking about my 1287 (86mm JEs)
thx guys!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted December 12, 2008 07:06 PM
I doubt you will get a measurable power increase with gapless rings. The large ring gap you have for nitrous will have more blowby than normal, but this is usually only a concern if you are having trouble passing a HC emissions test.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted December 12, 2008 07:17 PM
 Edited By: rgeorge on 13 Dec 2008 03:20
I just looked at the total seal website and noticed their rings use gas pressure to force the ring to the cyl wall. This is similar to (but probably not as effective as) gas ported pistons. Generally, gas ported pistons are only used if you are having a lot of blowby because the ring isn't matching the shape of the wall.
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dougmeyer
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posted December 12, 2008 08:16 PM
All modern rings use gas pressure to assist sealing. Gas ported pistons just do it more. "Gapless" rings ahve never proven to be of any particular advantage.
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KZScott
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posted December 13, 2008 04:17 AM
thx guys
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 13, 2008 09:13 AM
Edited By: flite leader on 13 Dec 2008 18:13
if you are getting good ring seal which the stack you have
i doubt you will gain going gapless
in some supercharger/turbo applications they have seen a minmal gain
blowby is a consideration when you start to pressurize your crankcase
at top end pumping losses can be significant ..................notice
suzuki have ported cylinder walls then they made them larger !
any "blowby" goes directly in the crankcase......if that pressurizes
the pistons become parachutes.............
with a big bore kit + spray you pumping losses significant
easily several HP
almost everyone is familiar with a 3 ring piston stack even tho with 4 stoke engines there have been a few variations
yamaha as used a single ring 4 & 2 strokes successfully in a race engine
at very high rpm there are 3 major factors to consider
seal......fluttter & skidding
of cousre you have to have areasonably good seal to effect combustion
at elevated rpm say 14k & up the time that takes place is small
no less actual compression is also reduced......simply lkess time to fill the cylinder
flutter
you simply DONT want the ring moving in the wrong direction................at TDC it changes
direction under several THOUSAND G's
if it flutters ......no doubt it loses compression but it also beats up the piston land
skidding.....................yeah i can tell how some post they have skidmarx
if after TDC the piston ring skids that causes heat .......spalling
& usually results in seizure............or gudgeon problems
by only using 1 thin ring most of those problems are elimated
no less we are talkin hi perf race engines
that never idle.....sit at traffic lites etc
so an oil control ring aint necessary
idling is one of the worst things you can do to an engine......... any engine
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 14, 2008 06:07 AM
quote:
All modern rings use gas pressure to assist sealing. Gas ported pistons just do it more. "Gapless" rings ahve never proven to be of any particular advantage.
Agreed 100% Doug.
We have never seen any gains on the dyno on a V8 engine, either N/A, Roots or turbo motors. But piston ports absolutely help with ring seal. But the rings wear out quicker.
Never tried them on a bike engine.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 16, 2008 12:26 PM
the only place weve seen a difference is that window of time
the engine is not fully warm.........................or not actually Hot
& burn out....stage.......run
in street racing many times times there is NO
burn ....or chirp
from what we see or truly dont see on a temp gauge that might
reflect radiator temp an engine b4 a run is not completely heat saturated
piston rings reflect this more than any other component
the seal at idle is not the seal at full load torque peak to redline
the seal st soccer mom or mall duty is NOT the same as torque peak to redline
piston rings more than any other component are effected by temp thru a duty cycle
[not overheating]
road race bikes that run longer periods of time use bigger radiators......& in many cases ibn competition go 50% larger to shed btu's 7 to stabilize temps at maximun output
no im not talkin radiators
i talking heat saturation that can effect ring seal & life
to that end gapless rings may actually seal quicker
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 16, 2008 07:22 PM
Well we dont load an engine on the dyno untill the oil temp is about 180 deg F.
So I couldnt tell you if gapless rings seal better on a cold engine under load.
I guess its possable??
Its oil temp that really matters. An engine isnt thermally stable untill the oil temp has stablized. Water temp is not a good indicator of a "warmed up" engine. You will see the water up to temp way before the oil.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 17, 2008 11:27 AM
quote:
Well we dont load an engine on the dyno untill the oil temp is about 180 deg F.
So I couldnt tell you if gapless rings seal better on a cold engine under load.
I guess its possable??
Its oil temp that really matters. An engine isnt thermally stable untill the oil temp has stablized. Water temp is not a good indicator of a "warmed up" engine. You will see the water up to temp way before the oil.
we are making similar point
yet even after oil temp can be stabile & the head .....pistons etc
not be
they simply wont be at their max temp until they have been under load
you will see different temps same engine after 600 miles at charlotte or at bristol or martinsville
than you wil see if dale jrs car runs 1 1/4 mile or a mile for that matter
its usually accepted that after 1 lap the car is a go [nascar & indy]
yet if you themocoupled the head.... block..... headers etc
& some teams are dataloggin this info [relatively ez]
you would see wide variances simply as a result of load vs sustained load
at martinsville for years there was a spate of "cracked" ........ not burned pistons
usually after a caution the back up to speed [approx 3 laps later]
the heat soak is the culprit
2 totally different things altho both are catastrophic failures
if you been at the 24hours of daytona ..... again its a factor
im not sayin oil temp is not a consideration or factor
but for every 10 degrees of increase other components may be going up in temp
10x
you never see glowing red/orange exhaust headers on a scca engine...... or nascar
yet is you are stress testing on a dyno ...........................easily done
the ford CT was required to run 500 hours wide open
a feat it end well....... a supercharged engine probably the easiest to set up & RUN
one reason they chose a supercharger...........................its easier to control those
wide variances....................even easier than a turbo
550 hp they could have gotten & not gone to either
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 18, 2008 04:48 AM
quote:
quote:
Well we dont load an engine on the dyno untill the oil temp is about 180 deg F.
So I couldnt tell you if gapless rings seal better on a cold engine under load.
I guess its possable??
Its oil temp that really matters. An engine isnt thermally stable untill the oil temp has stablized. Water temp is not a good indicator of a "warmed up" engine. You will see the water up to temp way before the oil.
we are making similar point
yet even after oil temp can be stabile & the head .....pistons etc
not be
they simply wont be at their max temp until they have been under load
you will see different temps same engine after 600 miles at charlotte or at bristol or martinsville
than you wil see if dale jrs car runs 1 1/4 mile or a mile for that matter
its usually accepted that after 1 lap the car is a go [nascar & indy]
yet if you themocoupled the head.... block..... headers etc
& some teams are dataloggin this info [relatively ez]
you would see wide variances simply as a result of load vs sustained load
at martinsville for years there was a spate of "cracked" ........ not burned pistons
usually after a caution the back up to speed [approx 3 laps later]
the heat soak is the culprit
2 totally different things altho both are catastrophic failures
if you been at the 24hours of daytona ..... again its a factor
im not sayin oil temp is not a consideration or factor
but for every 10 degrees of increase other components may be going up in temp
10x
you never see glowing red/orange exhaust headers on a scca engine...... or nascar
yet is you are stress testing on a dyno ...........................easily done
the ford CT was required to run 500 hours wide open
a feat it end well....... a supercharged engine probably the easiest to set up & RUN
one reason they chose a supercharger...........................its easier to control those
wide variances....................even easier than a turbo
550 hp they could have gotten & not gone to either
??? I dont know where to begin... I dont have time.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 18, 2008 08:03 AM
Edited By: entropy on 18 Dec 2008 16:10
hey Jim,
this version is easier to understand:
мы делаем подобный пункт
все же даже после того, как нефтяной временный секретарь может быть абстрактной скульптурой и головой ..... поршни и т.д
не, быть
они просто привычка, быть в их временном секретаре Макса, пока они не были под грузом
Вы будете видеть различных временных секретарей тот же самый двигатель после 600 миль в Шарлотте или в Бристоле или martinsville
чем Вы видят wil, управляет ли долина jrs автомобиль 1 1/4 милей или милей впрочем
его обычно принимаемый, что после 1 складывают автомобиль, - идти [nascar и инди]
все же, если Вы themocoupled голова .... блокируете ..... удары головой и т.д
так некоторые команды - dataloggin эта информация [относительно ez]
Вы видели бы широкие разницы просто в результате груза против длительного груза
в martinsville в течение многих лет был поток "взломанного" ........ не сожженные поршни
обычно после предостережения задняя часть до скорости [приблизительно 3 коленей позже]
высокая температура впитывается - преступник
2 полностью различных вещи altho оба - катастрофические отказы
если Вы в 24hours daytona ..... снова фактор
im не sayin нефтяной временный секретарь не рассмотрение или фактор
но для каждых 10 степеней увеличения другие компоненты могут повышаться во временном секретаре
10x
Вы никогда не видите пылающие красные/оранжевые выхлопные удары головой на scca двигателе ...... или nascar
все же - Вы - испытание напряжения на dyno ........................... легко сделанный
ЦЕМЕНТ брода был обязан управлять 500 широко открытыми часами
подвиг это заканчивает хорошо ....... перегруженный двигатель вероятно самое легкое, чтобы настроить и БЕЖАТЬ
одна причина они выбрали нагнетателя ...................
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 18, 2008 08:32 AM
L O L Karl
I get about the same amount of helpful info from both
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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aliveagain
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posted December 18, 2008 10:50 AM
all greek to me!
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 18, 2008 01:08 PM
so you have never seen a dyno run...................[im accused of magazine racing]
where an engine at full throttle for a few minutes
is glowing red hot after 10 minutes or more
what drag engine would run that long
what street engine would run that long at full WOT under full load
at a 150mph a 12 nor a 14 is under FULL LOAD
when trying to be a detractor..... to put someone down
easy to be facetious
yet if you answer anyone of my questions
the point is clearly made
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted December 18, 2008 01:52 PM
quote:
hey Jim,
this version is easier to understand:
мы делаем подобный пункт
все же даже после того, как нефтяной временный секретарь может быть абстрактной скульптурой и головой ..... поршни и т.д
не, быть
они просто привычка, быть в их временном секретаре Макса, пока они не были под грузом
Вы будете видеть различных временных секретарей тот же самый двигатель после 600 миль в Шарлотте или в Бристоле или martinsville
чем Вы видят wil, управляет ли долина jrs автомобиль 1 1/4 милей или милей впрочем
его обычно принимаемый, что после 1 складывают автомобиль, - идти [nascar и инди]
все же, если Вы themocoupled голова .... блокируете ..... удары головой и т.д
так некоторые команды - dataloggin эта информация [относительно ez]
Вы видели бы широкие разницы просто в результате груза против длительного груза
в martinsville в течение многих лет был поток "взломанного" ........ не сожженные поршни
обычно после предостережения задняя часть до скорости [приблизительно 3 коленей позже]
высокая температура впитывается - преступник
2 полностью различных вещи altho оба - катастрофические отказы
если Вы в 24hours daytona ..... снова фактор
im не sayin нефтяной временный секретарь не рассмотрение или фактор
но для каждых 10 степеней увеличения другие компоненты могут повышаться во временном секретаре
10x
Вы никогда не видите пылающие красные/оранжевые выхлопные удары головой на scca двигателе ...... или nascar
все же - Вы - испытание напряжения на dyno ........................... легко сделанный
ЦЕМЕНТ брода был обязан управлять 500 широко открытыми часами
подвиг это заканчивает хорошо ....... перегруженный двигатель вероятно самое легкое, чтобы настроить и БЕЖАТЬ
одна причина они выбрали нагнетателя ...................
LMFAO!!!!! Hold on! Let me go get my kids magic decoder ring that came out of a box of cereal. 
You guys are killing me.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 18, 2008 06:17 PM
I'm just going to sit back and watch, I think this is FishAntlers again.
Remember "BlackValkyrie"? I think this Mr. FL is Fish.
____________
Y2KZX12R
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Gunner
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posted December 18, 2008 08:53 PM
Nah... Fish isn't that smart.... 
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 20, 2008 08:32 AM
teee heeee heeee
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or break your ass...!!
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 20, 2009 06:26 PM
Edited By: dubious on 21 May 2009 02:45
Scott,
It seems you have meore than enough input here to make up your mind... but I will add my 2 cents anyway...
I have a set of proseal gapless rings and actually went to install them in my crankcase, albeit when I had them compressed and ready to slip in they seemed to be hanging up in the grooves...
My take is they are a gimmeck. In theory they sound great, but they were simply too flimsy, as well the shape of the machined ring would distort when in the cylinder, when I turned the engine over by hand I could see they were twisting in the ring grooves, and distorting.
So happens to be the guy assisting me scorred the newly machined deck, and so I tore it all back down, installed the MTC pistons with the machined rings MTC provides with their pistons.
I am extremely impressed with the big MTC rings in comparison with the stockers btw...
the MTC rings are approx 33% larger in thickness and width... much more stout for the big bang IMO...
Additionally, after fooling with this thing enough already, I have pretty much got it in my head to stick with the proven basic designs....and just get it running right n tight!
Not as tolernaces tight, but as in strong n tight.
I could post comparison pics if anyone is interested.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted May 21, 2009 04:53 PM
Jeezus - I didn't notice the date on this thread and I thought FL was back! I almost shat!
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 22, 2009 03:39 PM
oops,
and I wasn't even digging!
I don't know how I found this old post! LOL
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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