brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted December 17, 2008 10:37 PM
Ok so what the hell is squish? why haven't I read about it anywhere? How can I tell if I have squish? Do I want squish? I read about Hemi and what Jim says is exactly what I read. And in racing applications they were prone to detonation because they were sensitive to tuning and one would keep advancing the spark and then sudenly the engine would detonate usually knocking the ring land off and get blow by, torch the piston and fall apart. At least that is what I think I read!
Ok so I know that ya'll are arguing but I cant really figure out what about becasue I would love to put my 2 cents in so let me just say this. If ya'll are going to argue could you pick something that is a little easier to understand and learn from because this just seems like a pissin match and I don't really care to learn who can piss the farthest. No offense guys but ya'll are confusing the hell out of me.
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Brenda
  
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tcchin
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posted December 17, 2008 11:48 PM
The problem is that this whole thread is a crock, and it lurches and stumbles from topic to topic in an attempt to avoid anything resembling cohesiveness, reason or accountability.
Squish is the static minimum distance between the flat part of the piston crown's periphery and the cylinder head. Squish is minimized to make a more compact combustion chamber, to control flame propagation/combustion efficiency, to increase compression, to decrease heat transfer to the piston crown and to minimize detonation. Too little squish and the piston will contact the head as the rods stretch and the crank bends at high RPM.
Man, I gotta pee...
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brendasue555
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posted December 18, 2008 01:18 AM
cool, thanks
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Brenda
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 18, 2008 04:18 AM
quote:
The problem is that this whole thread is a crock, and it lurches and stumbles from topic to topic in an attempt to avoid anything resembling cohesiveness, reason or accountability.
Yea I agree Tim, I just see Flight posting misinformation and feal I need to correct .
Comparing a top fuel engine to a well built circle track or road race engine is like comparing a 1923 model T engine to an indy car engine. The tolerances on a TF engine are a joke, and without a blower and Nitromethane they done make shit for power even if you changed the cam and brought the compression up to 15 to 1. We have run them on the dyno in similar configuration on gasoline N/A. But to the defense of the TF engine, they have to be built several times in a day on the ground in the pits quite often replacing one of these and one of those and they only have to live for a few seconds. So they do the job, usually.
Brenda, think of squish like this. Some gasoline in a coffee can is sitting on the ground and you light it. It has a mellow lingering flame burning off the top of the can. the air and fuel is motionless. Nw you kick the can very hard and add mixture motion. What happens?
When you light the mixture (typ 36 deg btdc sbc) starts expanding in a flame front from the spark plug, the piston is still a distance from the head (lets say about 3/4"). When the piston squeezes all the volume out very quickly between the head and piston that volume gets blown at the flame kernel very abruptly and creats fast motion in the chamber like kicking that can of gasoiline over. And as a result the mixture burn accelerates and the pressure in the cylinder rises MUCH faster than if the chamber han no or little motion.
This is why a wedge head typically needs much less timing advance than a hemi.
So why is lighting the mixture early bad?
Because it takes HP to spin the engine over. You have 1 cyl at a time making power. any work needed in the compression stroke is neg. HP and costs you work. Thats unavoidable in an otto cycle engine. But not so in a Miller cycle engine, but we wont get into those.
So we all know that an otto cycle engine needs the mixture fired before the piston reaches TDC because of the time it takes to reach max cylinder pressure doesnt happen in an instant. so pressure is rising in the cylinder as the piston is rising in the bore. That robs HP, so the earlier you need to light the mixture the higher the neg hp losses. This is one reason why direct injection gasoline engines are going to be the norm in a year or two. The new chevy camaro will have a 300hp V6 with direct injection.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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tcchin
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posted December 18, 2008 08:49 AM
My apologies to Jim and any of the other victims of this thread. I hope you understand that my criticism was not directed toward you.
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flite leader
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posted December 18, 2008 10:46 AM
direct injection will put the fuel in the cylinder at the most advantageous location
did i not mention distribution of the incoming charge is a factor
did i not ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
between the 55 degrees b4 top dead center to ignitions in some racing engines
using o degrees there are manyt factors to consider
far tooooooo many for there to be ONE Answer...........................what would you
how would you set up this engine.........
on any grid ...............any TYPE Racing & there is only ONE Way
HOW SO ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
one could actually get 2 engines...... same parametres
essentailly same HP & theywould totally different
have different mid range & top end......................................YET im asked to proffer
an answer of the ONE & possibly ONLY way to set up a NOS engine
thats Stooooooooooooooooooooopppppppppiiiiiiiidddddd !
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tcchin
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posted December 18, 2008 11:19 AM
Are you saying that you want to put two motors in Scott's ZX-12, because to do otherwise would be stupid? Can't you only configure a single engine with only one setup that's a thoughtful compromise of the various competing demands placed on it?
BTW - I think the Winter Teardown thread is the only one in which you were asked how you'd set up a motor.
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 18, 2008 01:02 PM
2 engines ...........................i laugh
in fact so hard my left plum is hurtin
on either engine...... the winter teardown & the meltdown
photos of the pistons were NOT shown
more deductive evidence
no less 1 engine [winter] was running way tooooo rich
on a scale of 1-10.........an 8
the other way tooooo lean with destruction in almost every cylinder
it was running on the ragged edge......................on a scale of 1-10
a 12 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
either could notch it in the appropriate direction & have a better & more relable engine
the winter engine does not show the consistency of components or assembly
the meltdown engine does
that state ment is not an indictment of either
it is simply evidenced................thats right EVIDENCED by the photos
in front of god & for all to see
any other comment could only be idiotic & false
on the more recent turbo for xmas thread
i glad to see many posts all across the board from many POVs
& not 1 example of anyone thinkin someone walked on their plums
thats a GOOD thing ! ! ! ! ! ! !!
now i ask you do you really think all of jack roushes cars have the SAME components
& no less the SAME set ups ?? ? ? ? ? ?
that jeff gordon has the exact same car .... engine ..... components & SET UPS
AS jimmy johson.........A CAR & TEAM HE OWNS
yet im asked for the one & ONLY Defibitive answer for a NOS bike
silly
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Shane661
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posted December 18, 2008 01:08 PM
Flite, did you not see the other thread with the pics of his Spring and Fall engines? Those pics are a little more clear than the winter ones. I don't know how he keeps track with all of the engines he has! 
Shane
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flite leader
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posted December 18, 2008 01:16 PM
quote:
Flite, did you not see the other thread with the pics of his Spring and Fall engines? Those pics are a little more clear than the winter ones. I don't know how he keeps track with all of the engines he has!
Shane
you dont answer questions
i dont answer yours
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tcchin
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posted December 18, 2008 01:31 PM
I'll bet your sore left plum that one of Jeff Gordon's engines has only one setup at a time on it. That's the bitch about the space-time continuum.
All we're asking for is info on one setup on one motor. How can you have multiple setups on a single motor simultaneously? And let's not start down the VVT, telemetry or traction control paths, calling them multiple setups. We're talking one ZX-12 motor set up for how Scott is going to use it. And we're not even talking about the whole setup, just three numbers.
Last chance. Three numbers.
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Shane661
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posted December 18, 2008 01:35 PM
quote:
you dont answer questions
I guess we're in the same boat. 
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 18, 2008 01:39 PM
quote:
quote:
you dont answer questions
I guess we're in the same boat.
hardly
i answered yours
you dont accord the same
no less i made my point..........you didnt get the answer you wanted
& its ludicrous to think it could be answered as you wanted
no we are not in the same boat
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 18, 2008 01:49 PM
Flight what do you do for a living?
What are some of the jobs you have had?
Just curious.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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flite leader
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posted December 18, 2008 01:53 PM
im a trained technician
yet ive done afew things
as i said b4 im a wrench & ive raced autos & motorcycles
ive witnessed many a dyno run
ibeen very competitive & many thinjk im a very good tuner
many try tuning from simply will & determination
& an enviable parts list
many a succesfull racer knows thas NOT true
now what do you do ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2008 02:01 PM
I clearly posted pics of my pistons in the winter rebuild thread. there are also pics of Garys melted valves. out of his motor
here, ill post them again just for you
again these pics are in my winter rebuild thread
feel free to recommend a base setup for the numbers Tim is looking for. 1287cc 13.5:1 CR, 2 stock inlet cams, 120 hp of nitrous, 12500rpm rev limit. street use, drag use, lsr use.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 18, 2008 02:48 PM
ive seen these b4
& if what im seeing is correct..............the two outside pistons had contact with the valves
yet if remember correctly another cylinder spit a shim & crashed the vlave
now you are asking me about a recommendation
& all along ive been saying that its the set up that is my concern
2 pistons getting cozy with valves & another crashes with a valve
i would be more concerned about that then ordering up a new engine size
size doesnt matter to this extent
i would be more concerned in ANY engine how to avoid 3 pistons coming into contact
with the valves whether it was normally aspirated.....blown.....turbo
or a briggs & stratton
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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brendasue555
Expert Class
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posted December 18, 2008 02:57 PM
Flight, did you ask jim what he does for a living? OMG go to this website Competitioncnc.com. This is his web site if you were paying any attention at all then you would know how great he is and how smart he is. You should try not to be such a know it all smart ass and you might find out how great the people here are and just how much you can learn from them. And I dont know what your plum is but I hope it rots off.
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Brenda
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2008 03:04 PM
as stated it was from hitting the rev limiter by accident and spitting shims, thats why the pistons hit valves. the pistons are fine btw.
so you have no comment on valve seat width?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted December 18, 2008 03:14 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 18 Dec 2008 23:15
quote:
ive seen these b4
& if what im seeing is correct..............the two outside pistons had contact with the valves
yet if remember correctly another cylinder spit a shim & crashed the vlave
now you are asking me about a recommendation
& all along ive been saying that its the set up that is my concern
2 pistons getting cozy with valves & another crashes with a valve
i would be more concerned about that then ordering up a new engine size
size doesnt matter to this extent
i would be more concerned in ANY engine how to avoid 3 pistons coming into contact
with the valves whether it was normally aspirated.....blown.....turbo
or a briggs & stratton
Translation:
"I've seen these pictures. I can't remember which cylinder spit the shim. Pistons and valves colliding is not good." (duh)
I added the "duh" part.
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 18, 2008 03:17 PM
ok homer
thanks for the duh
still 3 different pistons having valve problems is significant
& the previous inference its the NITROS ..........simply not true
i only made my comments on pix sghown not against anyone
yet set up is crucial............................you are making my point
thanks
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Shane661
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posted December 18, 2008 03:24 PM
quote:
ok homer
thanks for the duh
still 3 different pistons having valve problems is significant
& the previous inference its the NITROS ..........simply not true
i only made my comments on pix sghown not against anyone
yet set up is crucial............................you are making my point
thanks
Translation:
"Let me repeat myself and display that my understanding of what caused this problem is less than zero. And, somehow, you translating is in fact helping me express my point."
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 18, 2008 03:31 PM
you help me.................................
why i stated it correctly the 1st time
then folks got all sensitive thinking i was against somebody......................
i was & i am NOT
if he had a blank check for all the right ..... latest ..... & greatest parts in the world
valves kissing pistons would be my first & only concern
the lame attempt & excuse its a Nitros bike & im off base
aint cuttin it
any engine kissin valves & pistons should be parked
back up ten yards & punt
instead of building it bigger ....... only results in a bigger slag pile
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
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posted December 18, 2008 03:36 PM
quote:
you help me.................................
why i stated it correctly the 1st time
then folks got all sensitive thinking i was against somebody......................
i was & i am NOT
if he had a blank check for all the right ..... latest ..... & greatest parts in the world
valves kissing pistons would be my first & only concern
the lame attempt & excuse its a Nitros bike & im off base
aint cuttin it
any engine kissin valves & pistons should be parked
back up ten yards & punt
instead of building it bigger ....... only results in a bigger slag pile
Translation:
"I don't have a clue in hell as to why a big shot of nitrous while on the limiter could cause the above displayed condition."
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 18, 2008 03:43 PM
quote:
I read that whole post.
Time I can never reclaim.
Answers elusive.
EXCELLENT!!!
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