KZScott
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posted November 29, 2008 09:00 PM
brass or bronze valve seats?
in a nitrous application which is best, and why are they so much better than stock? any more maintenance with them? do they wear faster or anything like that?
im trying to decide if i should go all out and get new ex seats and stainless valves or if one of the 2 would do
wolf was running a 230 hp 1427 with stock valves and a 150 hp shot of nitrous, but didnt use the stock seats....
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted November 30, 2008 12:12 AM
There are several copper-based alloys (bronze, Be-Cu, etc.) that are popular high-performance upgrades. Copper conducts heat better than the iron the the OEM seats, which keeps the valves cooler, preventing seat erosion and valve face distortion/damage. A properly-chosen alloy will not wear any faster than stock.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, so I can't say if "one of the 2 would do." Are you trying to increase redline, durability or flow?
If you were really going all out, you'd be looking at Del West Ti valves and beryllium copper seats...along with a government bail-out!
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KZScott
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posted November 30, 2008 12:49 AM
this is the plan. as much nitrous as possible without melting shit 
ok seriously I just want this motor to live a long time using maybe as high as a 120 shot of nitrous for lsr events. if it can handle that i wont worry about hurting it at the drag strip. If its not a lot more $$ I was thinking over sized EX valves and seats to flow the nitrous better. stock sized SS valves are about $20 each from Schnitz, Im not sure where to get bigger ones, but im sure someone(more than likey you ) on here does (Karl has bigger valves in one of his heads i think?)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted November 30, 2008 01:29 AM
Del West or Kibblewhite for the Bronze alloy or Berrylium Copper seats.
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KZScott
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posted November 30, 2008 01:52 AM
prices?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 30, 2008 06:08 AM
In your application I dont think Berrylium Copper seats are needed. Berrylium Copper seats are harder than aluminum/bronze like Ampco 45 alloy. BC also conducts heat from the valve to the head better. But BC is expensive and causes resperatory ailments like lung cancer if inhaled while machining or sanding/blending.
Ampco 45 transfers heat better than stock Iron alloy seats but both Berrylium Copper and aluminum bronze are softer than the stock seats so a valve job wont last as long and valve adjustments are a little more often.
The key with nitrous is a wider seat to transfer the heat faster no matter what the material.
APE has bronze alloy seats as well. You can call Jay and ask for a set of our custom o/s bronze seats they make to our specs for the stage 3 heads.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted November 30, 2008 07:57 AM
thanks Jim I had a look on ZXZone and they are about $11 a pop. who do you use for o/s valves? would the gains be very significant in a nitrous application to go a bit bigger on just the ex valves? (i understand thats how it goes for a nitrous motor?) how big can/should I go? std is 28.35mm what size does your stage 3 head use? should I just send it to you?
thx 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted December 01, 2008 04:47 AM
We use Ferrea and Kibble White for motorcycle valves. Nitrous and turbo / supercharged aplications bennifit the most from better flowing exhaust ports. Our stage 3 heads use 1mm o/s intake and exhaust valves with bronze seats. The valvejob is also different for better valve cooling.
We can get you all setup, no problem. We stock the seats and valves.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
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posted December 01, 2008 11:49 AM
Right there with Jim-
Because of expense- Bronze
The best if money no object - Beryllium Copper
I like Ferrea valves
Actually, If I remember right Brenda's ZX-11 head has BeCu seats in it
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted December 01, 2008 04:40 PM
thx guys
Jim, can you pm me a price for doing just the EX side? bronze seats and 1mm o/s SS valves?(no porting or anything too fancy, I port matched cleaned up the head) im sure the intakes are cooled quite well by the nitrous
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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posted December 02, 2008 02:47 PM
If you want an Idea of how good Bronz is! WHen I was at Syds Cycle in Fla he showed me a Ducati Head where money was no object and the entire head was Bronz wth aluminum Cast over it for the Finning and exterior surface
Speaking of Seat Widths for non Nos I was using .5 MM on the Intake and .75 on the Exhaust. For NOS I was using .75 on the intake and 1 MM on the Exhaust with my 60 shot! I am considering 1.25 on the Exhaust and leaving the .75 on the intake with the 150 to 200 shot. From the Destruction I saw the Intake stays a lot cooler because of the cool charge entering into the cylinder! An old Addage is that when it comes to 4 strokes the Exhaust Valve is the Design Limit of the engine! (What ever it can handle is the Most the engine will handle! This is also why I do not use Valve guide seals on the exhaust. I want that little extra Oil seeping down the Guides. If I were to see distress I would also consider making the top of the Guide ConCave to let even more oil pool there! Maybe I am just Anal but this is what I think and do,
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted December 02, 2008 04:14 PM
thx for the info/input VH 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 02, 2008 05:19 PM
Great Info!
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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VincentHill
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posted December 03, 2008 08:05 AM
Some of you have seen road race bike let out a little smoke on either Decel or a puff of smoke when they get back on the gas and MAY think that the Bike has a problem. You have also heard people say as long as you see a little smoke the bike is making good power and get rid of the smoke the bike will break!
My thought is that this all was related to the Exhaust valve and nothing to do with the rings ir intake valve guide seal! There was ALWAYS 1 puff of smoke when I would exit a corner and no more until the next! I never ever had a Valve related engine failure while racing ever! As a matter of fact, during the entire time I raced a 4 stroke Kawasaki engine I only had 1 failure and that was when I started up an engine and heard a noise and turned it back off and later found that the Crank Pin had cracked and the Connecting rod was holding the pin together!
I used Castro R40 and it really gummed things up which I had to clean up after the race but never bought anything because of broken pieces! BTW, At charlotte I finished 3rd in a heat race behind Eddie Lawson and Richard Chambers and at Road Atlanta I finished 11 behind Eddie :Lawson, Freddie Spencer, West Cooley, Mike Baldwin, Roberto Pietrie, Chuck Pharm, and the rest of the factory riders! So I was not taking it easy on my engine!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted December 03, 2008 08:18 AM
how fast does coked oil build up on the ex valves when you dont use seals?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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posted December 04, 2008 08:16 AM
Not a problem when you only do not use the Seal it is when I got fancy and started drilling the tops concave that I got some deposit! I was actually a little surprised at the LACK of deposit on the valves
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted December 05, 2008 05:41 AM
interesting... how long between rebuilds? (no drilling)
did you do this on your 12 too or just the old road race bikes?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 05, 2008 09:05 AM
Vince is sure an old hand at this stuff, but personally I would not run wo oil seals.
I mean why run wo them?
What's the benefit??
every OEM engine runs them.
I have never had problems with valve stems or valve guides.
Well, i have broken 2 guides, but wasn't an oiling problem.
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 05, 2008 07:46 PM
Skipping the seals on the exhaust side used to be common on lot's of engine builds but better materials on the V8's and lower temps on the bikes made it unnecessary. We did it on small blocks early on to keep extra oil on the valve stems on race engines where we didn't care about the smoke. Better guides, valves, and PC seals fixed that.
Vince picked up the habit building and racing air cooled fours with cylinder head temps upwards of 400 deg F. where some extra oil on the exhaust stems didn't hurt. After 1984 when we all started using liquid cooled four valves with nice thin valve stems in bronze guides, that extra oil became useless. But "old habits die hard", right Vince?
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 05, 2008 07:55 PM
I think both myself and KZ are curious if it would help to cool the exhaust valves a little bit when running N2O for extended periods?
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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posted December 05, 2008 08:39 PM
i should seriuosly spend a solid month and read every post here and emblazon all this into memory.
every time i come here, i learn some new and wacky shit i hadn't thought of or heard of.
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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KZScott
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posted December 06, 2008 04:33 AM
quote:
I think both myself and KZ are curious if it would help to cool the exhaust valves a little bit when running N2O for extended periods?
you hit the nail on the head sir. LSR and big spray
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 06, 2008 10:25 AM
if you are running enuf NOS .........................or burning it long enuf to melt
your guides something is very wrong
temps & pressures are spiking...................& no less that shouldnt be happening in the
inlet or exhaust tracts
there are metals in the same if not closer proximity to combustion
that have less tolerance to heat than your valve guides
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 06, 2008 01:14 PM
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KZScott
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posted December 06, 2008 02:51 PM
quote:
if you are running enuf NOS .........................or burning it long enuf to melt your guides something is very wrong temps & pressures are spiking...................& no less that shouldnt be happening in the inlet or exhaust tracts there are metals in the same if not closer proximity to combustion that have less tolerance to heat than your valve guides
we arent trying to keep the valve guides cooler(it is a side benifit), the objective is to keep the valves cooler. (see melted pic above)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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