KZScott
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posted November 27, 2008 06:33 AM
C16 VS. Alcohol/Methanol and O2 sensors
So I want to step up my game next season in the power department(dont we all  ) and I want to do it safely. Guys have been stressing running race fuel with nitrous, and I plan on running some form of it in my wet nitrous setup. (seperate fuel pump and tank just for the foggers)I had been running 91 octane pump in both tanks, and will continue to run 91 in the normal bike tank for drag racing. (makes running a NA pass between nitrous passes very simple because I dont have to drain the tank)
C16 is very common and proven, but its leaded, and kills wideband sensors(so I hear). A guy with a supercharged mustang was running a splash of c16 in his pump gas and kept ruining o2 sensors at the track....
The other option Im aware of is running alcohol or methanol. 99% sure theres no lead in it that can hurt anything, and it will run much cooler than pump gas.
my main question would be how does it compare to c16 for running nitrous? better, worse? I realise that I will need almost double the flow of alcohol compared to gas, but im upgrading my NOS pump to the Holley Blue, and can easily get 4 big jets. Im pretty sure my NOS super power shot fuel solenoid will flow enough volume at 10+psi since the NOS pump is only about 4.5psi and I am only around the halfway mark of its hp rating
another question, about AFR, does the number Im looking for change compared to gas? how would I tune a mix of gas and alcohol?
thx!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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VincentHill
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posted November 27, 2008 07:27 AM
I was using Torco or Sunoco Race Gasoline and never had the Gum Up Problems of VP
I change the O-2 Sensor about once a year! It takes about 100 or so miles to Foul it. I usually get between 250 and 500 Miles before it is gone! Running Alcohol is and entirely different Animal with Several times the amount of fuel needed and the problems in absorbing Water !
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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entropy
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posted November 27, 2008 08:09 AM
rgeorge was running alcohol at texas with spray.
i run leaded fuel and like vincent don't have a significant problem ruining O2 sensors.
i don't know if the stock injectors are big enough to use use alcohol for NA passes
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KZScott
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posted November 27, 2008 08:27 AM
Ill still be running the bikes efi system on pump gas, just the secondary fuel tank used for the wet nitrous kit will have some sort of race fuel. I just need the cooling and anti detonation properties of the race fuel when the nitrous is on.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Texas12R
Zone Head
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posted November 27, 2008 08:47 AM
where is the secondary tank? or is this still in developement
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KZScott
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posted November 27, 2008 08:52 AM
 Edited By: KZScott on 27 Nov 2008 17:08
in my +6 tail. beside the nitrous bottle and electronics (with room to spare  ) it worked great this season running 60 wet and 30 dry on 91 octane in both tanks. I want to step it up and have some sort of race gas used when spraying more.
the pump was moved before testing, I didnt know it had to be lower than the tank when i first mounted it
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted November 27, 2008 06:24 PM
I hope to see some braided lines on that fuel tank......
How long and what id on those lines.....
I might have some in my old aircraft salvage box.......if I can find it ..
keep up the good work... 
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KZScott
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posted November 27, 2008 06:52 PM
the pump was only 4.5 psi, but you are right in saying the lines should be upgraded. Im replacing the pump with a higher pressure unit and I had actually been thinking of running hard lines. maybe some brake line or SS line. not sure on the exact size it is or what size I may need because of the different pump. the line goes from the tail, under the big gas tank and up just past the inspection plates on the frame. I had some of that "ribbed" plastic wire sheathing over that gas line you see in the pic for a little protection.
thanks
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rgeorge
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posted November 28, 2008 09:26 PM
quote:
The other option Im aware of is running alcohol or methanol. 99% sure theres no lead in it that can hurt anything, and it will run much cooler than pump gas.
my main question would be how does it compare to c16 for running nitrous? better, worse?
No!
Methanol should not be mixed with nitrous in a wet system. It's volatility (Reid vapor pressure) is much lower than gasoline.
When nitrous meets gasoline at the end of the nozzle, the fuel is atomized and they are mixed evenly.
Methanol mixes fine with warm air, but when it meets the nitrous at -60F, it will not atomize. It will want to stay in droplets. Since some of the fuel will still be in droplets, the rest of the cylinder will be dangerously lean.
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KZScott
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posted November 28, 2008 10:15 PM
ahhh that kills that plan then. thx Rob!
now that thats out of the way, I was told that the XXX E-138 Race Fuel would run better than methanol and didnt have the side effects of methanol... no real details tho. its an oxy fuel which is slightly scary since ive been told dont mix oxy fuel and n2o.... but that just may because it needed to be remapped ? but its over 120 octane. c16 is 117 I believe.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rgeorge
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posted November 28, 2008 10:43 PM
quote:
rgeorge was running alcohol at texas with spray.
i don't know if the stock injectors are big enough to use use alcohol for NA passes
I converted my bike to run on E85. Ethanol based fuel is similar to methanol, but not as corrosive.
On my first pass at texas, my stock injectors were maxed out, so I bumped the fuel pressure to 60psi (from 50) It got my AFR back to where I want it- about 7.0
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KZScott
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posted November 28, 2008 10:53 PM
do you have to change the oil a lot using e85 or is that just methanol?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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bawls
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posted November 29, 2008 12:24 AM
Methanol is a real pain in the ass. We ran it on all of our dragbikes when i was sand dragging. As a good rule of thumb (and this was on quads) it is good for 40% increase on a 4-stroke. The downside is that it's hard to get tuned in very well, it burns twice as fast, you have to flush your system after everytime that you race, you get condensation in your oil that will rust your crank, and if you open the barrel in the hot sun and your face is too close to the opening it will blow fumes in your face and you'll wake up about 30 seconds later wondering what the hell happened lmfao. Your engine will run nice and cold with it though. You can walk up to a banshee that's running on methanol and rest your hand on the side of the cylinder lol.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 29, 2008 03:02 PM
You should know that, methanols fuel volume in high compression shallow valve angle engines is condusive to hydrolocking the engine.
Its very easy to hydrolock a methanol engine, and with a series of misfires, its very likely.
We have a shelf of pistons from Methanol injected motors with broken ring lands from hydrolocking due to misfires. Theres very little room for error and you wont even know you hydrolocked untill the piston(s) shatter.
So to increase the safety buffer zone you need to lower the static compression ratio and that negates any gain from Methanol.
Just somthing to think about.
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Y2KZX12R
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KZScott
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posted November 29, 2008 03:39 PM
Thanks Jim. another reason to stick with gas
can you comment on the XXX E-138?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rgeorge
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posted November 29, 2008 04:48 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 30 Nov 2008 00:50
quote:
... broken ring lands from hydrolocking due to misfires. Theres very little room for error and you wont even know you hydrolocked untill the piston(s) shatter.
Like this?
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KZScott
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posted November 29, 2008 06:54 PM
ouch... switching back to gas?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
rgeorge
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posted November 29, 2008 10:49 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 30 Nov 2008 07:03
I am surprised the stock pistons held together as long as they did with all the abuse I've put them through. Doing an upgrade to some tougher pistons this winter.
I'll keep using E85 for daily riding, but, haven't decided what race fuel I'll use next season.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 30, 2008 05:47 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 30 Nov 2008 13:50
Yep, that is a clasic example of the inability to compress a liquid.
Even the best pistons made wont last in a hydrolock situation.
Supercharged alcohol engines have much lower static compression ratios so they can get away with it.
Try a supercharger...
Scott, whats the question?
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted November 30, 2008 07:43 AM
well after getting all the info from this thread, I guess im looking to compare VP C16 to XXX E-138
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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