brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted November 24, 2008 04:37 PM
Teddy that is great but wait untill I find out if mine is ruined becasue I think it is special for some reason. but thanks a million and I will let you know. And it may be an old zx11 but it is not just any old zx11. It is very very special. again thanks and I will keep this in mind but hopefully this will not be the choice I have to make.
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Brenda
  
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 25, 2008 06:17 AM
Right on Brenda....
Did you get to the part about the difference between Pre-Ignition and Detonation and what causes both to happen? 
I agree with Ted, Most often its cheeper to get a new head, unless the head you have allready has bronze seats and is ported etc. and you want to save it. Then its worth fixing.
We keep our customers proprietary port designs on file for them so when a head is damaged badly we can eith fix it in the 5 axis CNC, or make an exact replacement.
Saves cost for them.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted November 25, 2008 06:53 AM
Brenda, You are doing GREAT. There are many guys on these forums (except DB Zone of course!) that think they know what detonation is and don't have a clue. You have some of the best help in the industry at your fingertips.
Just remember don't be afraid to ask anything. Nobody's going to judge you.
Remember, the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask!
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted November 26, 2008 06:19 PM
May want to consider looking at this site as well. He does a decent job at a reasonable price.
http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=134975.0
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted November 30, 2008 05:19 PM
so am i getting it right about detonation and pre ignition? I wrote about the causes and differences in bike chat.
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Brenda
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted November 30, 2008 05:22 PM
here it is.....................
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Detonation and pre-ignition from a girls understanding.
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This is what I have learned about what hurt my bike and made me cry! In the cumbustion chamber it is ideal to have the location of peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. I think this is true for practically every combustion engine. This is the place where the piston should be to get the maximum work out of the combustion process. So depending on the design of chamber and the burn rate of the fuel you would want to start this process with the spark at whatever degree before top dead center it would take to cause the controlled burn's peak pressure to be at 14 degrees after top dead center. Now detonation is caused by left over fuel being ignited by hot spots in the chamber(for example an exaust valve) at a point after the normal combustion process. Pre-ignition is caused when the fuel in the chamber is ignited prior to the spark in the normal combustion process. Each of these things is able to cause the other to happen. Pre-ignition can lead to detonation and vice versa. Pre -ignition is the most damaging of the two because it happens when the piston is still on its way up and last a long time detonation is a spike that happens when the piston is on its way down. Detonation causes a snowball effect on the engine becasue of the spike of pressure causing a shockwave effect in the chamber that disrupts the thin layer of gas that protects the piston head and the cylinder causeing it to over heat causing more detonation causing it to over heat and so on. Pre-igniton usually causes failure in high compression engines within seconds. There is a lot more to it but this is my basic understanding. So do I have it right?
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Brenda
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Brenda
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted November 30, 2008 09:11 PM
Yes, Brenda you have it exactly right...... But keep in mind that pre-ignition is really pretty rare. Detonation from high cylinder pressures and fuel of insufficient detonation resistance is the killer. Lots of things, mechanical and combustion related, effect cylinder pressure though, so that 14 degree number really isn't something to pay too much attention to. It kind of takes care of itself when you tune all the other variables for max power.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 01, 2008 05:18 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 1 Dec 2008 13:22
quote:
here it is.....................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detonation and pre-ignition from a girls understanding.
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This is what I have learned about what hurt my bike and made me cry! In the cumbustion chamber it is ideal to have the location of peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. I think this is true for practically every combustion engine. This is the place where the piston should be to get the maximum work out of the combustion process. So depending on the design of chamber and the burn rate of the fuel you would want to start this process with the spark at whatever degree before top dead center it would take to cause the controlled burn's peak pressure to be at 14 degrees after top dead center. Now detonation is caused by left over fuel being ignited by hot spots in the chamber(for example an exaust valve) at a point after the normal combustion process. Pre-ignition is caused when the fuel in the chamber is ignited prior to the spark in the normal combustion process. Each of these things is able to cause the other to happen. Pre-ignition can lead to detonation and vice versa. Pre -ignition is the most damaging of the two because it happens when the piston is still on its way up and last a long time detonation is a spike that happens when the piston is on its way down. Detonation causes a snowball effect on the engine becasue of the spike of pressure causing a shockwave effect in the chamber that disrupts the thin layer of gas that protects the piston head and the cylinder causeing it to over heat causing more detonation causing it to over heat and so on. Pre-igniton usually causes failure in high compression engines within seconds. There is a lot more to it but this is my basic understanding. So do I have it right?
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Brenda
Yep, damn girl, you have been reading good info from somewhere.... most mainstream publications dont even nail it down that good.
Just to add to Dougs comments...
Its true that preignition is far more dangerous than detonation. Infact many (some say most) all out race engines expierience some form of detonation at some time or another and never miss a beat. But because its minor detonation it does no damage. All detonation isnt the same. There are several degrees of sevarity of detonation from insignificant to instant engine falure.
If you use a datalogger on a GM LS-x engine and watch the Piezo (knock) sensors you will see minor detonation at different throttle positions and engine loads. Under light loads its no big deal. They did use the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve in the 70's and 80's into the 90's to reduce combustion chamber temp spikes that reduced detonation in the lean burning engines of the day that had a tendency to run hot chambers. But modern designed engines dont even need an EGR now because of excellent combustion chamber designs that reduce detonation and combustion chamber temp spikes even with higher compression ratios..
This is done my increasing the chamber mixture motion and eliminating the "dead" pockets. Dead pockets are where detonation can start because the mixture is stagnent without motion and it heats up, and the cylinder pressure is rising and the flame front hasnt got there yet. At some point the fuel mixture in the dead spot spontainiously combusts and "detonates".
These bikes have awsome chamber designs that have excelent tumble mixture motion so they resist detonation even with 12 to 1 static compression ratios and 89 octane rated fuel.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted December 01, 2008 04:41 PM
Oh thank you so much for the compliment on what I have learned. I have read everything I can get my hands on. I have been thinking about looking around for a dragbike shop in my area that might let me work / hang-out for free just so I can learn more about how the motors work. I don't know if that is something that could happen becasue I don't know how secretive people are about that kind of thing. And a lot of people just don't like girls around. I wish that I would have lived in the same town where Doug had his dealership, Then I could have begged untill I wore him down, because there is so much knowledge in that hat rack of his I cant imagine how cool it would be to even be a fly on the wall when his mind is at work. He has a real understanding of the whole picture, I would love to have a usb connection into his brain. Now there's an idea!
Everything that you mentioned is exactly what I have been reading. One thing I read that I don't quiet get is why does incipient detonation cause the exhaust gas tempurature to actually drop a small amount. And it surprises me that some people that should understand detonation completely, actually don't . I have read enough to know that the pinging is not metal running around in the combustion chamber. When that happens it is usually too late. And you probably wont hear those little pieces of your piston edges flying around but a second or two if you did. I didn't hear anything when all hell broke loose on my bike but then again I was in the house on my computer . I have found the best explanation was from the aeronautics industry in a publication called "Contact" ...........the Jan/Feb 2000 issue. And Scott Valentine has been so helpfull letting me call to find out things like WOT, MAP, LPP, EGT, stuff that i need to know as I read so I can have a chance at understanding. I dont see why they dont just use the words but that is just the girl in me. Anyway I also have read a lot about different fuels and that is pretty cool too. I get high compression needs high octane but it sure would help to be in a place where I could see what fuels were used and why. So I am thinking that Doug probably ran VP C12 or maybe C14 or C14plus (just a wild guess) but I dont understand to much about the oxygenation, spacific gravity, which factors do what to the burn rate, leaded, unleaded, and the relation to high rpm....low rpm....blah blah blah.
But you can bet one thing I am learning about the fuel right now and hope that I can get my brain wrapped around it. There is only one thing bothering me about it all. Why can't I be younger so I could actually have time to get as brilliant as some of you guys.
And thank you all so much for giving me a place to vent, and being so kind.
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Brenda
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 01, 2008 07:36 PM
Brenda! Yer killin me! You must be spending a lot of time reading about engines. You should share your sources so maybe some of the "smart" guys on the other forums around here can also do a little learning (not needed on Dragbike Zone, of course).
Actually, I never use VP fuels. I buy all my fuel from Rick Gold at ERC. He is a master at blending and fitting the fuel to the engine. Also ERC has a pretty educational web site. I have mainly used three blends 110K, RUL, and A-19.
Here is their website http://www.ercracingfuels.com/
As you will see, there is a lot to gasoline blends.
When comparing aviation fuel requirements to racing, be cautious. These are two very different applications. Av engines operate at very low constant rpms, and are air cooled which sometimes requires excess fuel to aid in engine cooling. Also they have different vapor pressure requirements because they need to function at high altitudes.The combustion chamber designs in Av engines are very dated and much more subject to detonation than a more modern high performance engine. There's a lot more, but you'll figure that out........
Engineers are very fond of TLA's (That's three letter acronyms) it makes them sound very "in the know"......
I've been wrestling with that younger thing for quite a while.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 01, 2008 07:57 PM
Mr. Meyer, you can include some folks here at the Dragbikezone.com. First and foremost myself! The info on some of these sites are priceless. You and a handful of others are very open where most other people and sites are very tight with information. Truely is a great bunch of people in this community.
I think VP has a place that Entropy likes to frequent in SanAntonio. Shoot him a PM and I am sure the next time he runs over there he'll be more than happy to introduce you to all the right VP fuel people.
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted December 03, 2008 01:43 PM
Wow, I just read the story of this bike brenda has. Great story Brenda. Some how I missed the whole thing before.
I gotta get on here more often.
Anyway Brenda, after a story like that.... I'd be willing to help you out on this "special" bike and repair the head for a very, very, good price. We'll be at the AETC confrence and then the PRI show in Orlando coming up so it will have to be in a few weeks. Hope that doesnt hold you up.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted December 06, 2008 06:01 AM
hold me up? hold me up? omg are you for real? I don't see how any one offering to help could hold me up.......After I get through doing the pee pee dance, and stop screaming for joy I will email you and see what we can do. This might take a day or 2 and I am not sure If i will have calmed down enough to actually type again. I dont' mean to seem ungrateful right now I am just about to explode I am so excited.
In awe at your kindness to a stranger,
brenda
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Brenda
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted December 06, 2008 06:19 AM
no real strangers......just friends you have not met in person.....Im sure that you will have
quite a following the next time you run at the Texas Mile 
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted December 06, 2008 06:24 AM
omg I never thought of that, how damn cool is that. Now I need leathers just like dougs.
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Brenda
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted December 15, 2008 06:59 PM
Thought I would share pictures of the cleaned up head with new exhaust seats. Thank you much Andy - Metric Motorcycles - Houston, TX!
Bonus: Santa came early and left me some new plugs for the Old ZX-12
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2008 02:02 AM
NICE!!!!!!
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KZScott
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posted December 16, 2008 06:44 AM
pertty stuff Gary its better than new
are those OS valves? how wide are the seats?
thx
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2008 09:04 AM
Andy typically does 1mm contact width...
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TRNorBRN6001
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Posts: 2021
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posted December 16, 2008 09:22 AM
Regular size valves and I do believe like Entropy said on the width, but I do not remember exactly everything he said.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted December 17, 2008 02:56 PM
was the head skimmed
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or break your ass...!!
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Johnnycheese
Pro
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posted December 17, 2008 03:41 PM
Looks good Gary
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted December 18, 2008 06:19 AM
Yep, shaved after welding and clean up.
Thank you much JC, what are you doing up so late?!!!
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ZXALAN
Expert Class
Posts: 156
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posted December 18, 2008 08:17 AM
Nice Gary......After Karl took me to Andy's shop and I checked out his rig for doing heads, I will definetly let him repair my melt downs....although on turbo stuff its easier/cheaper to just get another head...(since there is no porting/big valves etc)
Here is the head thats on my bike now, Crazy Bill over on SH.org fixed it after my meltdown....He had lots of welding to do, replace some seats/valves. He did a great job on the repairs and turn around time was excellent....I wasn't 100% happy with the sealing of the valves but after I touched them up myself, they were fine.
After
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2008 08:36 AM
is that a busa head Alan? its looks good
Gary, how much has been taken off of your head total now?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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