tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted December 16, 2008 06:39 PM
quote:
quote:
let me ask a question
would anyone PAY ME to build & set up an engine as i have SEEN ? ???????????
Nope, Scott (hypothetically) would ship you an engine so you could make it right for the mission he has stated (spray, LSR, 1/4 mile, transvestites), and it's up to you to make all of the technical decisions on clearances, CR, materials, etc. Price is no object. It's all up to you, including exhaust guide clearance and seat widths. I think we're looking for three numerical values here. Let me give you an example, and feel free to use this format:
.0008", .040" and .060", respectively.
Bump.
  
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NINJA12
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posted December 17, 2008 07:09 AM
This will be good if we actually get some information.
Jim and Tim may have to explain this to the rest of us, after flite finish with his turn.
I just did some google searches on these, now I'd like to know which way to go, why,
and the consequences.
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 17, 2008 04:23 PM
not aware of the particulars of the excercise
from what ive seen & am aware of ......................my assessment is a 300 hp engine
not that much consideration save for setting it up right
there are several 350 hp zx10 running around with turbos
& save for the fact 1 kept wanting more & more 1 is stone reliable....stock
save for turbo
the other was leaned on toooooo much
& o yeah the other [just remembered] was NEVER set up right
300 hp is strong street or strip & will get you into the 8's
but it dont take a genius to set up
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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NOX
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posted December 17, 2008 04:28 PM
You do not need 300 hp to run 8s.........
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KZScott
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posted December 17, 2008 04:38 PM
you need it to run 8.5s  (no bars on an only ok track)
flite still going on about other stuff and avoiding questions i see. how about those 3 numbers Tim was asking about?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
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posted December 17, 2008 05:35 PM
quote:
not aware of the particulars of the excercise
Spray, LSR, 1/4 mile, and maybe the occasional pre-op tranny from Hooters, as we've stated numerous times in this thread alone. Please use the following form:
EX guide clearance: .00xx"
IN seat width: .0xx"
EX seat width: .0xx"
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted December 17, 2008 05:40 PM
Sorry Scott, there's just something funny about my mental image of you loading a dude in a sequined dress and a nine-martini buzz onto the back of your Ninja.
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KZScott
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posted December 17, 2008 06:59 PM
a mental image is all it will ever be i can assure you lol
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 18, 2008 04:40 AM
Guys, FL cant answer any direct technical questions. Its obvious in this and the other threads on here..... I love a good technical debate but dont like pissing matches. I'll let you guys entertain him now. I've got work to do.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2008 08:17 AM
Yes thats become clear, Jim we asked several times and he wont/cant answer. what would you personally recommend for my setup?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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osti33
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posted December 18, 2008 01:59 PM
quote:
Sorry Scott, there's just something funny about my mental image of you loading a dude in a sequined dress and a nine-martini buzz onto the back of your Ninja.
Best quote ever!!!!! 
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2008 02:17 PM
I dont want to know how Tim comes up with some of his ideas.....
but back on track, I cleaned up my head, washed it in hot water, and gave it a mist of oil.
also noticed some discolouring on the ex valves. I dont think they looked like this last yr. Im assuming the heat from nitrous and maybe the fact i was running Royal Purple?
SS ex valves are going in allong with bronze seats, just not sure on std size or 1mm OS yet. in valves/seats staying as is, just going to lap them in again.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 18, 2008 03:13 PM
i would use std
if you notice once you skim the head material is lost right up next to the valve seat
affecting temps & cooling
sure heads get skimmed & peeps us oversize valves
simply a consideration
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 19, 2008 03:11 AM
Than is something to think about, Garys head was milled and the new bronze seats were just touched(maybe they are wider/thicker than stock seats even though hes using std size valves?) hmmmm
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 19, 2008 05:30 AM
quote:
Yes thats become clear, Jim we asked several times and he wont/cant answer. what would you personally recommend for my setup?
Scott,
I'd have either BC or Ampco45 seats in there APE makes good seats. .040" wide on the intake and .060"-.070" wide on the exhaust. Bronze guides with .0003-.0004" added clearance with good valve seals.
A non laminar flow special Nitrous seat shape on the intake to help promote a homoginious mixture of the nitrous and extra fuel sitting behind the valve as it starts to open.
Remove the sharp edges on the piston around the valve reliefs and grind away the thin curtain around the valve relief near the cylinder wall.
Move the top rings down away from the heat as much as possable. And do not run gas ports.
Use a Napier hook second ring and open the gap on it an additional .005"-.007"
Lap the top of the block and lap the head deck after resurfacing.
Squish should be as tight as you dare. .030" If you are very accurate at obtaining a deck height number. To get an accurate deck height number...
Assemble the bottom end without any rings or oil and bolt the block down tightly without the head on it. Bring each piston to TDC with a degree wheel. While pushing down on the piston with about 30-40 lbs of force with somthing that wont mark the pistons, take deck height measurements in 3 places on the piston measuring on the side that you are pushing down on. The thrust side, the center over the pin, and the non thrust side. Do this for every cylinder. If you know the stroke of each rod journal and piston pin height then you can move the components around to even them all up. Use the biggest number as your nominal deck height.
Run your rods loose at .002" - .0024"
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 19, 2008 08:41 AM
Jim's going to have to kill ya KZ after handing over those trade secrets! lol
KZ, your just like Entropy. He likes to slip his parts in his $5k dishwasher before autoclaving!
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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KZScott
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posted December 19, 2008 11:02 AM
quote:
Scott,
I'd have either BC or Ampco45 seats in there APE makes good seats. .040" wide on the intake and .060"-.070" wide on the exhaust. Bronze guides with .0003-.0004" added clearance with good valve seals.
Ill probly go with the APE seats. the ones used for std size valves and the ones for 1mm over size are the same right? (they list them as working for a range of valve sizes) are they a direct fit or does the head need to be machined for them? I appreciate the specs for seat widths ect
A non laminar flow special Nitrous seat shape on the intake to help promote a homoginious mixture of the nitrous and extra fuel sitting behind the valve as it starts to open.
is this sort of thing possible on stock inlet seats without sinking the valves in? expensive? how much does it help?
Remove the sharp edges on the piston around the valve reliefs and grind away the thin curtain around the valve relief near the cylinder wall.
did that last winter 
before
after
Move the top rings down away from the heat as much as possable. And do not run gas ports.
i assume custom pistons must be used to "move the top ring down"? not really in my budget. no gas posts on the JE pistons so they will stay that way.
Use a Napier hook second ring and open the gap on it an additional .005"-.007"
what style comes with the off the shelf piston kit Im using? I gapped them to what Johnny Cheese told me for a 100 shot last season. actually only had to touch 2 of the top rings and the rest were in the spec I was given.
Lap the top of the block and lap the head deck after resurfacing.
how exactly is this done? valve lapping compound and what sort of motion? (never seen it done) kinda circular or sliding back and forth?
Squish should be as tight as you dare. .030" If you are very accurate at obtaining a deck height number. To get an accurate deck height number...
Assemble the bottom end without any rings or oil and bolt the block down tightly without the head on it. Bring each piston to TDC with a degree wheel. While pushing down on the piston with about 30-40 lbs of force with somthing that wont mark the pistons, take deck height measurements in 3 places on the piston measuring on the side that you are pushing down on. The thrust side, the center over the pin, and the non thrust side. Do this for every cylinder. If you know the stroke of each rod journal and piston pin height then you can move the components around to even them all up. Use the biggest number as your nominal deck height.
I dont think I have the proper tools to measure deck height like you describe. Last yr I used Karls crushed solder method to determine squish. I did 2 cylinders and they measured .036 and .039. I didnt think I should run any tighter this yr because I had slight contact with the head on the quech pads on one side, but thay may just be a result of hitting the limiter?? piston rocking in the bore?? Im having my rods resized to make sure they are round(slight egg shape but in spec last yr), so that will open it up a bit. I was hoping the end result would end up around .040 on quench height. is that too much?
Run your rods loose at .002" - .0024"
pretty sure I was in that range last yr, but I cant find my notes right now
Thank you Jim! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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posted December 19, 2008 02:12 PM
quote:
Jim's going to have to kill ya KZ after handing over those trade secrets! lol
KZ, your just like Entropy. He likes to slip his parts in his $5k dishwasher before autoclaving!
LOL hes in for a long drive :P
i dont have the $5k dishwasher, but a wash tub/laundry tub with hot soapy water works wonders! parts coming out of the parts washer are still horribly dirty. its either waste 15 cans of brake clean or wash it. i use only HOT water to rinse with, hard on the hands, but imo getting the head hot as you rinse it is the best way to make sure it fully dries(and quickly). oil it to prevent oxidation and good to be stored untill needed. its in a plastic bag right now untill i figure out my exact plan with the seats and valves.
oh and btw to everyone reading this, flite is on my ignore list, if he posts in this thread please disregard anything he says as i cant see it. the entire rev limiter thread is non existant when i look in dragbike zone. (contented sigh )
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 19, 2008 05:12 PM
Ouch, thats rough! At least he did not curse. I have only done that once before.
Sorry Gunner, but I don't think I'll mis much.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=29&TID=39218&set_time=1228882882
Just curious what is the rational/reason for clearancing the valve guides? first guess cooling affect, second guess maybe distortion under a load??? Also curious what possible detriment there might be for running gas ported pistons on a heavy N2O application???
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 20, 2008 11:38 AM
We have APE make seats to our specs. We typically only put seats in on all out +1mm o/s valve applications.
Our seat shapes are our own design. We have a part number assigned to them from Sunnen and they can only be sold to us even if someone knows the sunnen part number.
But yes stock seats can be cut that way but they will be slightly deeper.
Lapping is done with a lapping plate very carefully. Ita a thick, heavy, and VERY flat plate with handles and wet/dry cloth that you use like a plane on the surface. We make our own.
It removes the very fine cutter marks from resurfacing and we find it helps on extreme applications.
The solder trick works fine. But I recomend doing one side at a time on each piston (8 places) use a rosin core it crushes easier.
The solder method applies the needed load to the bearings and wrist pin so it works well.
ALLWAYS do all cylinders. They are never the same. Theres machining tolerances.
Thats where measuring the pin heights and crank journal stroke lengths come in. You can mix and match rods and pistons to even things out. You can only run the squish as tight as the tightest cylinder.
.040" is a safe number. Thats good.
When resizing rods you should not exceed the max dia bore. It can reduce the crush on the bearing and will reduce the heat transfer from the bearing to the rod. This can be seen as black on the back side of the bearing. Black backs can also be from not enough oil flow (cooling) thru the rod journals. For LSR you want lots of oil flowing thru there to cool the crank and rods. But it adds windage and hurts HP, so this one is a trade off.
This is why its not good to run a heavy oil to increase oil pressure. Most people think they are doing the engine a favor running heavy oil. Not so. The engines oil system was designed to run a specific weight oil. Higher pressure seen after the pump means there is a greater resistance to flow. That reduces cooling. The oils #1 job is to cool the crank and rods not actually to make the parts "slip" past eachother. Now the cam lobes and buckets, thats another story.
Gary, a little extra clearance on the exhaust guides on a heavy nitrous LSR engine is just a safety precaution to reduce the potential for a stickey valve. The valve gets so hot you cant imagine. Even full synthetic oils can coke (boil and crystalize) at the bottom of the stem and cause a stickey valve.
We have found radical ring wear on HEAVY nitrous engines with gas ported pistons.
I personally believe it to be from over heating the top ring due to excessive combustion gasses getting to the ring. Its why you move the ring down in the piston to a cooler location.
nopiston porting and moving the ring down on the piston will cost power when not using the nitrous and it effects the dynamic compression and increases hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Thats one of the several reasons why a properly setup engine for heavy spray wont make as much power as a max effort non nitrous engine.
Like most things its a trade off.
Flight, your turn.
Anyone got any popcorn?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted December 20, 2008 12:19 PM
why 8 places when using solder to check squish? what 8 places do you mean? oh and why one side at a time? going by Karls advice last time i took the average for the front/ back. if you only do say the front, then do the back, wouldnt you get larger readings from the piston rocking in the bore?
my goal of resizing the rods is actually to make them smaller not larger. and of course remove any egg shape. I had to use the thickest (blues) bearings to get the proper clearance last time since i have one of the "smaller" spec cranks. with any luck, resizing the rods will let me use a set of brown bearing i have, but ill measure everything and order new if i have to.
I had actually been running lighter oil that Kawi calls for not heavier. Royal Purple 5w20 instead of 10w40. not to start an oil debate, but what is your personal preferance on oil for this type of application?
thank you Jim!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 21, 2008 04:49 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 21 Dec 2008 13:51
quote:
why 8 places when using solder to check squish? what 8 places do you mean? oh and why one side at a time? going by Karls advice last time i took the average for the front/ back. if you only do say the front, then do the back, wouldnt you get larger readings from the piston rocking in the bore?
Yes, without the rings and checking one side and the piston cold you are creating a worst case. When the piston rocks in the bore it gets closer to the head.
When the piston is hot it grows in the bore so the rock is less but the piston, crank and rod grow also when hot. So It gives you a workable number.
So the crank is under sized? When you make the rod big end smaller you shorten the Center to Center slightly, not a big deal.
Synthetic 10/30 10/40 is fine. Its really the additive package that really matters. Most oil is made from the same base stocks. Synthettics have more acid neutralizers to start with as well as more of the good stuff for the high pressure contact areas. And the synthetics dont coke nearly as bad in the very high temp areas in the engine.
http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/Y2KZX12R/?action=view¤t=page04.jpg
They change the formulas all the time but this was the content levels in 2000 when that was written.
The Feds made them remove the good high pressure lube additives like phosphorous and zink after the SI rating because they coat the catalyist and reduce the performance. The problem is the cams NEED those additives. So stay away from SJ or newer API rated oils. Diesel oils are not required to remove the "good" stuff for the cams because they dont have a catalyist.
The real problem when choosing an oil is the lack of information available. The oil companies dont tell you whats in the oil. So unless someone does very expensive testing to find out its contents and publish it you really have no idea.
Diesel synthettics will usually have the highest content of the additives that you want for the cams etc. But they tend to rob HP From what we have seen.
Race oils have no restrictions on what additives they can put in the oil because they arnt approved for over the road use in a car with a catalyist. But there expensive.
We use Joe Gibbs racing oils and have see the best HP with them on the dyno and they contain very large amounts of the "good stuff" but there expensive.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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entropy
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posted December 21, 2008 07:02 AM
Edited By: entropy on 21 Dec 2008 18:46
squish checking:
i use 16 pieces of solder all cut to 1/4".
On ea piston i put one piece to front, 1 piece to back, one on ea side, hold em in place w/a lil dab of blue grease. All on the squish area.
I ONLY use blue grease because one time Andy and I were discussing oils, and I said I ONLY use Royal Purple oil cause I like the color; he said, then take this - a tub of blue grease.
On Fri & Sat I did dyno testing on a motor I built last week which had min .027 squish determined in the manner above. Took it to 11,500 with no major head/piston contact evident when I pulled the motor down last night.
On this motor, #2, 3 cyls always show .001- .002" tighter squish than 1, 4. (stroker crank throw difference)
All that said, use Jim's method if you want to do it right.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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Texas12R
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posted December 21, 2008 07:06 AM
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KZScott
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posted December 21, 2008 10:01 AM
Im still not exactly sure how you are telling me to check squish with the solder Jim. where exactly are the 8 places? (I get 4 places per piston from what you are telling me Karl?) hmmm maybe my squish stick is broken? lol
my crank isnt really under sized, its just on the small end of the spec. it has none of the "O" marks. its still within spec however. I measure for bearings instead of using plastigauge like the manual says to.
no marks=36.984 - 36.992mm (1.4561 - 1.4564 in)
"O" mark=36.993 - 37mm (1.4564 - 1.4567 in)
thats an interesting chart. I wonder how RP Racing 11 compares to them? I will stay away from the SJ or API rated oils. my top 3 picks (going from opinions on here) are Royal Purple, Motul 300 V, and Amsoil.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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