zrxdean
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posted December 11, 2008 10:11 PM
LOL
  
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KZScott
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posted December 12, 2008 05:21 AM
first off, LOL Tim 
thx Dean and Karl 
Karl, Im going to assume that milling the same amount off my head as yours would result in a slightly smaller change since your running a bigger motor. your 87x60 vs my 86x55.4. It may be a very small difference, but maybe ill try to get around 13:1 or so by taking .020" off. if it ends up around 13.2:1(vs13.5 going by your motor math) I would be happy, thats a full point over stock, and is what Mike is running in his Ace built record setter. hmmm might get my 150mph NA at the dragstrip yet. do you think I would pick up 8-10hp or so from about a point higher in CR?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 12, 2008 06:55 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 12 Dec 2008 15:03
hey Scott,
i think taking .020 on yr motor would have a bigger impact than mine, bc yr swept volume is less, but the difference is small in either case. I dunno if you would pick up 8-10, but you can always hope, eh?
if you have the head milled, measure head height before and after just to assure that they took off what they said they did.
(and measure both ends, keep track of any tapering)
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KZScott
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posted December 12, 2008 08:25 AM
ah ok i must have had my thinking cap on backwards :P thx for the clairification. .020 might put it around 13.5-14:1 then hmmm. but im having my rods resized, which will drop the pistons a touch. (hopefully not much, i want to keep quench really close to what it is, but slightly bigger) and it might keep CR closer to 13-13.5:1?. I wont know for sure till i do it i guess.
im not sure if i have anything accurate enough to measure the head with. the biggest mic i have is 3-4 in, and a set of calipers just wont cut it.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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osti33
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posted December 12, 2008 03:32 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 12 Dec 2008 23:32
quote:
hey Scott!
You are on track, and can safely jack the CR by shaving the head.
I'm having a lil problem following flite's haiku-ed advice, but it seems there is good stuff in there somewhere.
Keep at it, Scott.
You have done all folks interested in motor building and tuning a HUGE service by posting pix and asking intelligent questions.
I agree 100% with Entropy.
This is a great thread for anyone that is thinking about taking on a project like this.
Like Entropy, I think Flite has some good info. I just need a decoder ring out of my kids cereal box to understand the rest. *kidding* I get some of the stuff he posts but certianly not all of it...
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flite leader
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posted December 13, 2008 09:48 AM
quote:
ah ok i must have had my thinking cap on backwards :P thx for the clairification. .020 might put it around 13.5-14:1 then hmmm. but im having my rods resized, which will drop the pistons a touch. (hopefully not much, i want to keep quench really close to what it is, but slightly bigger) and it might keep CR closer to 13-13.5:1?. I wont know for sure till i do it i guess.
im not sure if i have anything accurate enough to measure the head with. the biggest mic i have is 3-4 in, and a set of calipers just wont cut it.
as much as you are sprayin
you are also increasing your CR
2 or 3 points depending on your ignition advance
there again thats worse rich than lean..................
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bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 15, 2008 05:22 AM
Scott, your doing fine. These guys have all been there so dont be afraid to ask.
Rich is not worse than lean with Nitrous. Rich will not make as much power, lean will damage the engine.
Any number of guys on this board can tell you that first hand.
Start rich and tune to lean.
Leak down testing is no guarantee that the rings are sealing on a running engine. It only tells you that there is no major problem but it doesnt qualify the rings as sealing good on a running engine.
We have seen leakdows on all cylinders less than 4% and yet the rings were shot. Re ring and pick up 15 hp on the dyno.
Flite, what do you recomend for exhaust guide clearance on a nitrous engine? And what intake and exhaust seat width do you recomend on a nitrous zx12r?
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 11:52 AM
i can answer your question with some qualification
remeber i said he should race only......... he said street race.....commuting or booty cruising
didnt matter
i know plenty of people that think it does
so exhaust guide clearance would depend on sevearl factors
some to consider...... stock cam....hi lift cam
compression ratio matters.......he's skimmed the head once & is thinking of doing it again
& is essentially guessing at his CR NOS ADDS to the CR
exhaust valve seat width also depends on valve overlap
back to the cams again ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !!
stock cams & stock redline extreme extra seat width aint necessary
in an 8 second run {bike should be runnin 8.6-8.8]
yet im already at issue on his head setup......in case you couldnt tell
you & i know there is no one answer
& some of the things ive pointed out really were NOT criticisms
yet they CAN NOT BE IGNORED
he can do what the hell he wants
he just cant posit it to be the WAY to do it ......the Right Way
or the only WAY
the valve stack......height look like a snaggled tooth step child
the valve springs look fatigued & all youy guys keep talking about nitrous engine
a turbo puts out more HP ......HOTTER & easier
what gives
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or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
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posted December 15, 2008 11:53 AM
quote:
Flite, what do you recomend for exhaust guide clearance on a nitrous engine? And what intake and exhaust seat width do you recomend on a nitrous zx12r?
I think Flite missed your question, so I'm re-posting it. 
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 11:56 AM
no i didnt .....................
to you there is onlly one answer
there is not 1 answer
3 or 4 shops would get you several & i bet different set ups
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Shane661
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posted December 15, 2008 12:06 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Dec 2008 20:06
But the question was, "What do YOU recommend"?
NOT what do other shops recommened; what does FLITE recommend?
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 12:20 PM
& flite QUALIFIED his answer
with examples
flite QUALIFIED his observations with answers & examples
if you are sayin that there is ONE way to set up an engine on NOS
even using your specs ...........you know nothing & can learn nothing
what i would recommend is better set up of the components as have been shown
a carpenter im not
i concede that he probably could build a better out house
yet if i decided to learb how to build an outhouse
i would build one better than the engine i have seen displayed
you & NO ONE else can convince me that he CCd his head when the valves are
all over the place+ the springs are crap
you buyin ....................................im laugin
you sellin ..................................... i will PASS
1st of all i would not to the point of never wet spray any engine
its not & almost NEVER consistent
i do like dry sprayin tho
no less NOS is not the issue here when sevearl other components
i dont see up to snuff + their set up also MISSING the mark
some might take that personally ............................... i dont know why
some defensively..........................................................the pictures are proof
so whats up
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Shane661
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posted December 15, 2008 12:29 PM
Once again, you have nothing to offer here.
Shane
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 12:31 PM
quote:
Once again, you have nothing to offer here.
Shane
cant read a pot where you offered anything
where is that post ....................
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tcchin
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posted December 15, 2008 01:13 PM
It sounds like everyone knows how this motor is going to be used (spray, LSR, drag racing and some street use, e.g., trolling for transvestites). Since you can only run one setup at a time, let's assume that Scott is sending Flite his entire motor for setup. What numbers would Flite use as a baseline setup for guide clearance and seat width, assuming he had control over the rest of the variables in the engine?
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 02:02 PM
quote:
It sounds like everyone knows how this motor is going to be used (spray, LSR, drag racing and some street use, e.g., trolling for transvestites). Since you can only run one setup at a time, let's assume that Scott is sending Flite his entire motor for setup. What numbers would Flite use as a baseline setup for guide clearance and seat width, assuming he had control over the rest of the variables in the engine?
that would be easy to assume if anyone was building their dream motor
i think me & 1 other person mentioned it would be far EASIER >>>>>>>
CHEAPER>>>>>>>>> & FASTER ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! to use a turbo
my point &all along was from observing & someone else did also
that some of the set up was not good
then some copped to the fact that its just a hobby & this aint in his wheel house.........OK
i can allow for inexperience
let me ask a question
would anyone PAY ME to build & set up an engine as i have SEEN ? ???????????
would anyone be satisfied with the results as observed from Shierts
Muzzy......... for example
& if out of observation my points are correct
why is that causing a problem.................. i truly dont get it
cause if you answer those 3 questions correctly.....................my observations
ARE NOT THE ISSUE
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Shane661
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posted December 15, 2008 02:04 PM
No answers = garbage. Again.
Shane
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flite leader
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posted December 15, 2008 02:07 PM
Edited By: flite leader on 15 Dec 2008 22:30
i answered your questions..............................
as tcchin could discern
i asked 3 questions this time shane
& you have NO answers
i really want to know if you bought the parts........& let me assemble them gratis
the results i see would be acceptable to you ????????
fatigued bowed valve springs..... different stack heights ...... excessive seat pressures
possible coil bind
factors most dont want in ANY engine NOS >>>>>>>TUBRO>>>>>CARBS or not !!!
the photos are there................unless they are photocrap
otherwise a Directy testimony to my observations
____________
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tcchin
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posted December 15, 2008 05:11 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 16 Dec 2008 01:25
quote:
let me ask a question
would anyone PAY ME to build & set up an engine as i have SEEN ? ???????????
Nope, Scott (hypothetically) would ship you an engine so you could make it right for the mission he has stated (spray, LSR, 1/4 mile, transvestites), and it's up to you to make all of the technical decisions on clearances, CR, materials, etc. Price is no object. It's all up to you, including exhaust guide clearance and seat widths. I think we're looking for three numerical values here. Let me give you an example, and feel free to use this format:
.0008", .040" and .060", respectively.
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KZScott
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posted December 15, 2008 08:35 PM
Thank you Jim, do you think I should re-ring and do another break in? I thought my rings were sealing fine because it was running slightly better mph than last yr(stock) and was tuned much richer this yr(as stated accidently too rich)
minus the trannys you have the idea Tim lol
I tried to check my valve spring seat pressure today, but my digital scales were not very useful, neither was a really old set of mechanical scales(all i had). they were all about the same as far as i could tell. somewhere around 60 pounds. again the test was not very good, but i think my seat pressure is fine seing how those springs are 65 pounds new.
Im very interested in seeing what everyone would use for baseline numbers. this is the motor (hypothetical) 1287cc 86mm JE pistons, 13.5:1 CR, 2 stock intake cams, 12500 rev limit(extended ecu), 120shot of nitrous(progressive)
flite, if you make many more insulting comments you will be the first person to get on my ignore list. ive had enough.
again I thank they guys with positive feedback trying to help me
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2008 01:59 AM
KZ,
i suspect yr springs are just fine. I run them and measure seat pressure every build (measured the set that came out, and the set going in last fri nite, very predictable results)
My intake springs were down from 65#-to 54 but that's after a buncha abuse w/dyno steps to 12K & .415 int cam, so i expected it.
Get after it and don't let flite get under yr skin, his nonsense about "fatigued bowed valve springs..... different stack heights ...... excessive seat pressures" just shows that either:
1. he doesn't read any of yr posts
or
2. he flat-ass is full o' shit and is just repeating stuff he heard hanging around Starbucks on bike night.
yr posts are valuable, flite's yellow foam ain't.
i'm hoping flite is fishing...
____________
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 16, 2008 03:13 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 16 Dec 2008 11:19
quote:
Thank you Jim, do you think I should re-ring and do another break in? I thought my rings were sealing fine because it was running slightly better mph than last yr(stock) and was tuned much richer this yr(as stated accidently too rich)
I was just giving an example of how a leak down test doesnt actually qualify rings as being 100%. I wasnt actually talking about your rings persay. In the example I gave, we had looked at the rings, measured the rings, done leak down tests and compression tests and saw nothing wrong with the rings. But we were missing 15 HP. Replaced the rings and got the power back. The rings had only had a dyno session and 2 road races (289 SBF) and we were doing a pre teardown dyno session to compare to the first dyno session.
The Ignore option might just be the best answer Scott. From what I've read you wouldnt miss any real actual info. Just generalities read on line somewhere being parroted as first hand information.
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CompetitionCNC.com
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 16, 2008 06:26 AM
Starbucks bike night! Easy Karl, thats the place where I get all my Info!
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KZScott
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posted December 16, 2008 06:41 AM
Im convinced he doesnt fully read any of my posts. someone "as smart as he is" should comprehend parallax. the camera was inches from the head. if you compare different angles everything looks the same.
Im suprised there isnt a way to test rings without comparing dyno runs. it is interesting how they looked fine but were down on hp. whats the reason for that? metal fatigue letting them flutter or?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted December 16, 2008 11:27 AM
Well the engine being a road race engine sees sustained hi rpm. This combined with gas ported pistons and a evacuated crankcase, dry sump oil system, wears out the rings much faster. We did see the radial dimension shrink some. They are very thin and shallow to begin with.
We are building a 364ci SB2 engine for GT1 road race right now. Its going to have an evacuated dry sum as well but with a different ring package so we'll see how long these last. Were looking to make 850 HP.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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