flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 09:33 AM
 Edited By: flite leader on 10 Dec 2008 17:47
ok ok
running rich will on NOS cuases its own problems
no way to get a clean burn across the width of the cylinder
the mixture kinda gets in its own way
seat pressure on the valves should beas little as possible
i think stock springs are around 35..... muzzy around 55 & you said your was 65
no problem if you are running a turbo
those should be the compressed figures............ not the seat pressures
YAMAHA uses minimal seat pressures...............have he longest valve adjustment
interval in the industry........now i know many will take issue with that
heres one for DUCATI has no valve springs......yes they have built engines with "hair springs" in them to be certain valves are close so they can be started at crank over
they also have minmal seat pressure
they also have the most HP in motoGP & have had that throne for years
they have turned their engines on strobes up to 22k rpms
& under ignition to 16k
no less the installed height should be that they all are very close to the same installed
height.......................that way they dont screw with the compression ratio
bigger valves sunk into the head wont flow any better
the spit shim under bucket can be caused several things......... or ALL of them
that rich mixture...........even wide open after you get spark
youve got flame goin everywhere...........back up into the inlet.....out the exhaust
[seems like a good thing.......it aint]
then if you hit the rev limiter ..............worse things start to happen
starnge thing its ALL because of the NOS
most of the negatives DONT happen without it & certainly not to that extent
a turbo..... you build & tune to a turbo
a drag engine.......you build & tune to a drag engine [makes a lousy road race engine]
a supercharger.......build & tune for a huffer ......the easiest of them all !
a NOS engine is the crak head of the bunch ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
losing the shim or the collet is the result of conflicting waves of ignition occuring across the cylinder
ALL out of time with each other
youve got flames on both sides of the valves
cam tryin to open & close them
combustion tryin to open & close them
inertia tryin to open & close
if it occurs when the rev limiter hits
instead of the 1 open or close motion of the valve
you can get a flutter of 6 to 10 times
like a jack hammer or impact many little hits can take out concrete & steel
it just floast the bucket up...........turns the shim
next revolution.....CRAP !!!!!
stiffer springs is NOT the correction
staying off the rev limiter & the correct AIR?FUEL ratio....IS !!!!!!!
if you have a rev lite
you know you red line say is 11k
set your lite for 10.5...................shift when you see
DONT HESITATE....................................SHIFT !!
BY TIME YOU REACT....THE SHIFTER SHITS........YOU ARE AT REDLINE
many will think they will go faster for that 500 rpm......................probably not
technically you aint really givin it up......................read above
you are actually faster
waiting until 11k means you are sitting on WASTING TIME & causing DAMAGE
the reason why i ask about your street riding & i mentioned "wilted rings"
from what ive seen they aint sealing very well
you are getting a lot of oil"blow by".......yeeah thats correct term
its oil getting blown by the rings
that plus the excessive NOS is coating everything with deposits
ive seen drag engines run all season & street engines trhat didt have that much
deposits in them
i remember seeing photos of vincents..................save for the NOS deposits
far less than what i see.........there were NO deposits
yes Nos will leave a layer of ash..........................................yours look like drive way sealer
ok heres 1 thing i did pick up on your photos
makes no difference starting or just running
it makes a HUGE difference top end.......its called indexing your spark plugs
in 1 pic they are in backwards.....................the GAP is facing the exhaust valves
which will give you more flame outs & backfires.....what you DONT want
you put a piece if tape on one side your spark plug wrench
align gap to thattape
buy 6 or 8 plugs
install in holes so gap faces intake valves...............good for 1 to 2 hp per hole
yeah i know you dont believe it..........thats ok
its like that for any engine..................................we real good mechanics really know our sh!t !
yes i owned a 12
GOOD LUCK
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
  
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 10, 2008 10:33 AM
Will you please type in complete sentences so I can understand what you are trying to say? This is very frustrating trying to read. Seriously, if you are trying to help, type in a complete sentence so I can understand it. You post fragments of info and its too hard to follow without context.
What type of mechanic are you? Where do you work? What have you worked on that can back up your ideas?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 10, 2008 11:06 AM
Edited By: flite leader on 10 Dec 2008 19:12
read it again
you are making several freshman mistakes
valves......rods...... cranks are all fragments
you think your presentation was cohesive.................... not
your pictues verify EVERYTHING ive said
what dont you understand
i comment on the basis i think you know...............no harm or foul that you dont
until your motor starts to come apart.........................which it almost did
nothing i mentioned to you will damage a motor
only build a better one
wont hurt my feelings at all.................................just wish i had your wallet
a stock engine + a turbo would run faster
& costs you less
keep the photos coming great entertainment
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2008 11:22 AM
I have to agree with Scott. You are hard to understand. Look at your sentence structure and compare it to what you see in the other postings here.
Shane
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 11:38 AM
if you have aquestion ask me specifically
wont hurt my feelings
last week someone ask a non specific question...........happens all the time here
on another thread
thought i should intuit which one it was about ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
anything i said wrong.........point it out
anything i said you dont agree with...........................free country free speech
as i mentioned his presentation was boardroom............... im just sayin in response
fact it it does NOT trouble me
my comments are on point.........its just an engine
rods.....pistons.....crank & valves
all that i said is positive....................................
he can...... you can disregard as amuch or all if you like
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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posted December 10, 2008 11:53 AM
you continue to post fragments of sentences that are hard to understand. please use complete sentences. i dont want to have to ask you to clairify each line that you post. its a major pain, and all of this is cluttering up the thread
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted December 10, 2008 11:58 AM
ciao
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
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posted December 10, 2008 02:23 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 10 Dec 2008 22:26
WHOEVER GRINDED THE VALVE STEMS DOWN ON YOUR MOTOR ...Did a bad job from what i can see with the bucket removed ... looks like your having to use a huge shim on #1 compared to the next exhaust valve with stem settting higher up useing a thin shim ...thats my take from the pic i may be wrong my eye sight suxs ...
yeah and flite is phuck in d head
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 10, 2008 02:33 PM
nobody did any mods to the valve stems. the shims were all very very close in size
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 10, 2008 02:34 PM
quote:
WHOEVER GRINDED THE VALVE STEMS DOWN ON YOUR MOTOR ...Did a bad job from what i can see with the bucket removed ... looks like your having to use a huge shim on #1 compared to the next exhaust valve with stem settting higher up useing a thin shim ...thats my take from the pic i may be wrong my eye sight suxs ...
yeah and flite is phuck in d head
i will stand by setting the stack height properly
if someone dd some grinding ??????????
or didnt do a good job.................................thats bad workmanship
yet after reading part of the thread he did say he didnt even check the stack height
nor the seat pressure......or coil bind
thats simply is Not right
a good mechanic will always check
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 10, 2008 02:49 PM
like i just stated, there was no grinding done, and the shims were very very close. I used springs that are designed for use with high lift cams. i used stock cams. coil bind would never happen, i didnt have to check.
how do you set stack height on a spring?
seat pressure was garunteed to be 65 pounds seat pressure so i didnt check. i will from now on (because I trust Karls judgement)
im not a mechanic, i do carpentry, this is just a hobby, this was my first ever engine build, im happy with the result. i havent even had a shop class in my life...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 10, 2008 03:02 PM
im only back onyour thread because im responding to being called names....not by u
6th grade again maybe
just the same it is possible to check coil bind spring height &
the assembled stack in the head
springs can be & often are lopside....of center
that will cause a valve to break
sometimes they are weak.........& will go into coil bind
if the seat are sunk in too far...........the colletts WONT purchase the valve stem properly
not your fault whether you are a carpenter or not......... im not
& i bet you could build a better house than me
yet these things really ought be checked
i dont minfd whomever whenever having sold you parts
but a guarantee minus consideration for assembly........... even for an experienced
mechanic is improper
im not taking issue with you personally or the fact you may be inexperienced
most of what i mentioned simply take checkin......... checking & time
which is the ONLY way i know to gain experience
if you greande your motor.......& again
1st of all id like to have the money.............................2nd they say mistake are the best
way to learn
maybe not
all ive mention & tried to share i learned from someone else
some of the best actually
you cant use it....................
like i said its entertaining
but if you happen to be around someone that really gets it done
ask them about some of what i said
the good ones will tell you & tell u straight
there are NO secrets
& good wrenching aint about secrets
usually not forgetting what you already know
gice yourself a chance to learn intead of mixing adrenaline + testosterone &
another part of anxiety
only leads to stupidty
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted December 10, 2008 03:53 PM
quote:
im not a mechanic, i do carpentry, this is just a hobby, this was my first ever engine build, im happy with the result. i havent even had a shop class in my life...
ok which is it ..this build or the 1 that was done before you took it apart to fix a tick...i can see this engine has been apart at least twice... stock valve stems are never ground down to valve retainers that i've ever seen .. ...
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 11, 2008 03:47 AM
first build last winter
this winter tear down to fix the tick which turned out to be the spit shim. the stems havent been ground down....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 11, 2008 09:11 AM
Edited By: KZScott on 11 Dec 2008 17:17
ok getting back on track, I got a few pics today.
head with a light wipe down with paper towel
another pic of the collet out of place
removed, and comparing stock ex springs with Carpenter. the outer springs are the same height while the inner Carpenter spring is taller. as you can see if my stock cams didnt have coil bind on stock springs(the factory sure wouldnt sell many bikes if they did), they sure wouldnt have bind with Carpenter springs as they are designed for much more lift
close up of the valve that was held open and hitting the piston. hardly any build up to speak of compared to when i pulled this motor apart for the first time last yr.
ah the way its supposed to look
did a little cleaning up of this combustion chamber. after I check the springs ill take everything out and finish cleaning everything. I want the ports to shine like they did before
Im contemplating have the head surfaced, but dont think its really needed since I had no head gasket issues. i had .005" taken off of it last yr as per Karls advice. I would like to bump CR a bit since ill be running c16 in my wet kit next yr instead of 91 pump. and the added power would be nice. not really sure how much would have to be removed to make a noticable gain though.... Karl? 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 11, 2008 12:31 PM
increased compression from skimming the head might eventually cause
you problems.....your CP will be elevated again [great candidate for detonation]
ok look at both of the valve pics you show
see how 1 valve stem sticks up more than the other
while the head is off................most builders try to keep that static setup as close to right
& right is also close to being the same...................with minor differences
the difference i see aint minor..............cause i can see em ! ! ! ! ! ! !
that difference will effect volume or the "cc's" in the chamber
another thing
see how the smaller carpenter spring is bowed.........some say pregnant
that will cause big spring or small spring uneven pressure on 1 side of the valve
& a longer spring + more lift equals coil bind.............some thing you dont want
will eventually pop the stem & drop the valve............................ouch
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 11, 2008 01:20 PM
what you are seeing is an error in paralax. from another angle they are the same. which only makes sence because the valve stems havent been ground! they are stock unmodified. they both "stick up" the same amount.
I dont have my numbers on hand from checking valve clearance, but it was within spec, and I just checked the shim sizes. both had a 2.555mm shim
define CP?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 11, 2008 01:40 PM
Edited By: flite leader on 11 Dec 2008 21:48
compression ratio...........& the shim size is a consideration
many builders will "cc" the head
the only way i know to do it is valves installed
if it is clean....& it Should be most builders want the cc per cylinder to be the same
it is then reasonable to assume that the CR per cylinder will be relatively close
now we all know CR will vary some resulting in how the rings seat & how the valves seat
it is common to very very close if this is done........can be verified with
a compression check.......a cold static is good
a hot check after a brief ride is good...........never after a bench or idle warm up
& of course using a leak down tester is as good as a comp test tester
both are CHEAP
simply lets you know everything is buttoned up tight & working properly
thats why if you have a problem ....... its alwyas goooooood to check everything
to see how & why it deviated from the norm
one more thing ...........gas is expensive, ALL gas is
but if you are going to spray heavy & im thinkin a 90 shot is heavy
then at least find some good race fuel as cheap as you can91 pump aint
gettin it
yesterday was 70degrees & the other day it was 20..........& by tomorrow
we might need noahs ark, still it winter
unless you live in the sun belt it will be months b4 to can ride consistently & break in your bike
take your time !! ! ! ! ! ! !!! ! !! you have weeks & months
leave the rush & anxirty alone & slowly methodically build your bike
it will pay off in reliabilty + speed
anything i mentioned you dont know......doubt or you totally disagree with
you still have the time to check it out..........use it or refuse it
while you might be young or inexperienced
you can still gain skills that will last you a lifetime
some particulars simply forgotten by some.....disregarded by others
still make a difference
no less you mentioned economy ? !? ! ?! ?!? ?!?!? ?!??!
dude you are building a Race bike
booty patrollin or hooter cruzn will only was your walls down with gas
glaze your cylinder walls..........idling is your worst enemy
plus all the mechanicals are in the wrong heat range
you head for staging..............wait.....................burn out & CHIRP
run...............come back down the return road 3 mins .... for sure 4 mins or less
& the hard part..... the run ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
at the stripe the engine is up to temp
thats hard on an engine.................yet you can probably get a whole seadon out of 1 engine
watch your oil.....& its contamination
no less igets lots of clutch crap in it also................change your filter more than your oil
why..........LOOK AT THAT DIRTY MOTOR
so start saving now........................if you runnin
YOU $pendin
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 11, 2008 02:26 PM
i know how to cc a head. i did it on this one that how i calculated my current compression ratio to be about 12.5:1 I would like to try 13:1
as stated before Im using VP C16 in my wet nitrous kit this yr instead of 91 pump because ill be spraying more 100-120hp
my leak down results were great besides the cylinder that had the valve stuck open
this is a street bike that gets raced on the weekends. its not an all out drag bike. if it was the compression ratio would be jacked up to over 16:1 and it would be running on race gas all the time. there are literally thousands of bikes built similar to mine that get as much or more street use as they do track use. its normal. guys do this for years not 1 season of strict track use. get with the program, this isnt a 1500cc KZ. this 1287 motor wont wear out from 1 season. 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted December 11, 2008 02:50 PM
a kz wont wear out in one seaon either
guy we still have kz's runnin in the 8's at the strip round here........proven combination
yes many guys are running on the street cruzin & PIMPN .........................
yet that takes the edge off the engine
a 90HP swing is huge & you cant have your cake & eat it toooooooo
some guys with 40 dry shots....... the spread wasnt that big
if your ECU can make a 90HP adjustment so be it...........................ride on
got a friend on a 14 with spray
never seen this guy over 100mph....................bike is immaculate
the guy very cool......at 40....50mph
it some ways it aint been skint back..........................in others ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
maybe he's the only one that knows
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
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1badzx12r
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posted December 11, 2008 03:06 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 11 Dec 2008 23:08
quote:
i ill be spraying more 100-120hp
. this 1287 motor wont wear out from 1 season.
what odds you giving lol
and how many races is your season
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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KZScott
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posted December 11, 2008 04:17 PM
6-8 wknds
most of my passes are NA
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 11, 2008 09:21 PM
Edited By: entropy on 12 Dec 2008 05:22
hey Scott!
You are on track, and can safely jack the CR by shaving the head.
Stock head is about 4.644 "thick", taking 10 or 20 thou off won't compromise anything. .010" off the head gains about 0.5:1 CR on my 87mm motor. this is approximate, but is in the ball park.
I have shaved .050 " off one my heads and that is WAY on the edge since i have OS valves. The intake valve sealing area hits the head surface. Hard to explain, but its not good for longevity. Last week, after "only" 1 dynojet + 9 FactoryPro dyno sessions(to 12000) + 1 Maxton + 1 Texas Mile and i got a bad leakdown. Andy touched up the seats and i am building the motor tonight.
My set up likes high CR, cc-ed the assembled motor last night, got 16.35, 16.40 on the 2 cyls tested. The CR does not vary across the 4 cyl unless you have sunk the valves differently OR have modded comb chambers differently OR have a stroked crank with variation in throw.
My #2, #3 crank throws are .001 longer than 1,4. Really cannot see the diff in CR, but i take it into consideration when making PTV decisions.
I'm having a lil problem following flite's haiku-ed advice, but it seems there is good stuff in there somewhere.
I think you CAN have yr cake & eat it too with N2O.
No reason you can't jack yr CR up to 13.5/14 and run pump gas for street.
Run NA at the track on that same pump gas.
fillerup w/C-16 or equivalent for N2O.
(I know jack about N2O, have had a new Muzzy wet kit sitting on my shelf for 2 years)
Keep at it, Scott.
You have done all folks interested in motor building and tuning a HUGE service by posting pix and asking intelligent questions.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted December 11, 2008 10:02 PM
Agree, keep it up Scott.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2008 10:06 PM
Edited By: entropy on 14 Dec 2008 00:04
Flite sees much carbon
Hooters tang he no likey
Syntax needs some help
WHOA!!!!
Chin taking flite to school with REAL haiku???
"Hooters tang he no likey" Bahahahahahahahahahahaah
hoo-ters tang he no lik-y = 7, yep!
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