aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 18, 2008 10:55 AM
engine knocking
I whacked the throttle at 30mph and it instantly went to rev limiter.I didn't hear any noise as I'm going deaf and wearing an Arai,  but I noticed power was off. When I got it home on the lift ,I could hear a loud knocking noise.I started taking it apart and found copper in the oil pan.
When I got the head off, I was greatly relieved when the head wasn't all banged up.
The mains were good but the rods had one spun and swirl marks in between the bearings and the rod caps.      
Damned if I know where the copper came from !Any clues on where I can look?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
  
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warbird
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted October 18, 2008 12:27 PM
Well that's strange............. 
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aliveagain
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Posts: 5033
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posted October 18, 2008 12:50 PM
I took the wrist pins out and the small end of the rods are ok. Blown head gasket but no idea of brass/copper.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted October 18, 2008 03:17 PM
Wa it a brand new never run crank???
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 18, 2008 03:52 PM
I've had the crank in there for awhile.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 18, 2008 06:45 PM
Just found the bearing that spun was ground all the way past the copper.Got a little thin there.LOL
At least I know what it was and now have to see if the rod can be saved.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted October 18, 2008 07:55 PM
how many miles on the build..............what a fucking drag.
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warbird
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted October 19, 2008 08:20 AM
quote:
Just found the bearing that spun was ground all the way past the copper.Got a little thin there.LOL
At least I know what it was and now have to see if the rod can be saved.
Glad you found the culprit...........hope the rod is o.k.................. 
.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 19, 2008 09:50 AM
what type rod?
If stock just replace.
AM= resize.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted October 19, 2008 10:04 AM
What oil were you running? How hot was the motor? Stock pan looks like.........
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 19, 2008 11:15 AM
why not get a stock rod resized?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 19, 2008 11:44 AM
I have Falicon knife rods in there that have been resized once already.Other then stretch,is there anything else that would cause a bearing to spin?And would 12500rpms be enough to stretch the rods? I just want to make sure I'm covering all my basis,and not overlooking something.My brother says get the journal checked to make sure that isn't out of round.I had 20/50 weight oil in it and the motor was up to temp.#4 rod ground into the cases farther then I did for clearance for the stroker.A lot of glare but you can see it in the second photo of the cases.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 19, 2008 11:54 AM
hmmm i wonder if maybe you didnt clearance the cases enough? if it was just touching it may have started to cause the problem, and as it got worse it would hit even more...
Karls 1427 was revving to 12500 IIRC
how did you size the bearings?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 19, 2008 12:41 PM
I believe I had Carlquist size them for me.Never had a problem before with clearance either.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 19, 2008 07:47 PM
quote:
why not get a stock rod resized?
You could but, If there's damage also or outside the repairable range.
You loose time and the savings are not that great once you add new bolts and nuts.
IF you were doing all four the saving would increase and make more sense.
JMO.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 19, 2008 08:05 PM
RPMs can kill an engine.
Bore , stroke, piston weight and balance all help determine max rpm.
Consider the 600cc bike redline over 15K and a stock zx12 less than 12K.
Any upgrades to the oil system?
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 20, 2008 04:34 AM
quote:
RPMs can kill an engine.
Bore , stroke, piston weight and balance all help determine max rpm.
Consider the 600cc bike redline over 15K and a stock zx12 less than 12K.
Any upgrades to the oil system?
Exact how can I upgrade the oiling system?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 20, 2008 05:01 AM
1 shim oil pressure relief.
2. improve oil drain back by slightly enlarge the return
holes in the head, gasket and cyclinder.
3. increase oil capacity.
Don't go crazy on #2 , a little goes a long way.
The whole idea is to ensure there is plenty of oil for the pickup.
Some engines throw all the oil up in the head and it's too slow draining back to the pickup.
I personally don't like heavy oils, because they take too longer to lube the engine on cold starts.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted October 20, 2008 05:31 AM
Maybe give Harry's Machine shop a call and see what other oiling options they may
have for ya.
Maybe dry film lube on the bearings as well. Maybe start a post for specific imput on ZX-12
oiling mods.
I do believe Robinson was working on a higher volume oil pump gear for the 12 at one point in time.
Entropy and Mr. Hill will also be some good guys to talk to on oiling isssues.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted October 20, 2008 05:33 AM
A guy on this site I race with tore up the bottom end of his 14. He was running 20w50 oil for drag racing..........
I have yet to shim my pressure relief , as I figured 900 passes from one motor, and oil starvation from a different oil pan did that, I am okay with my stock motor.
Put a coby adams pan on it........, I had to add almost 6 qts after the build. 5 qts with a filter. at oil change...........
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21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 20, 2008 05:53 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 8 Nov 2008 08:45
I don't really feel that fine tuning oil weight off the OEM spec will add life, unless you are running substantially different bearing clearances than stock.
i don't know shit about bearing life or oiling mods but a few things are musts:
1. no damn dust, dirt, any shit whatever in the cases, oil passageways
2. bearing clearance is measured, not assumed or plastiguaged
3. rod big end is in spec, bolts are correctly torqued
4. pistons NOT hitting head (too much)
5. correct fuel/ign timing, prevention of detonation/pre-ignition (whichever one it is, i can never keep em straight)
6. completely prime oil system on a new motor before starting
7. keep the stroker outa the limiter
8. know yr quench, if you like to bang the limiter keep quench loose
9. stroker: assure cases/ starter gear clearanced sufficiently
just my .02 
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted October 20, 2008 05:57 AM
and number 2 may be the biggest of all these............
Especially if garage barbi helps, eh Karl?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 20, 2008 07:12 AM
if that bearing was loose it would get closer to the cases than "normal" clearance would allow, and as it was broken in, and loosened up more.... add expansion due to a warmed up motor? maybe that was part of the problem? hitting the limiter and causing a bunch of wierd forces on the crank/bearing may have been the straw that broke the camels back... i dunno, just guessing.
what motor combo are you running? 1394? that headgasket looks pretty narrow... might be a good idea to get the block and head checked out or surfaced to make sure the gasket seals on the rebuild
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 20, 2008 09:37 AM
quote:
if that bearing was loose it would get closer to the cases than "normal" clearance would allow, and as it was broken in, and loosened up more.... add expansion due to a warmed up motor? maybe that was part of the problem? hitting the limiter and causing a bunch of wierd forces on the crank/bearing may have been the straw that broke the camels back... i dunno, just guessing.
what motor combo are you running? 1394? that headgasket looks pretty narrow... might be a good idea to get the block and head checked out or surfaced to make sure the gasket seals on the rebuild
The motor is a SBM big block stroker.I know the head gasket blew but I was trying to see if 4 ply gasket would work.I'll have to go to Cometic to get the real deal.Need new studs,journal on crank is rough.Most of the motor is out being inspected and cleaned so I'll go from there.When I removed the caps, 1 and 4,2and3 were swapped.I had to have done that fiasco by putting the pistons into the cylinders first and then installing the cylinder and caps.Flipped over it is a different direction.I talked to Billy Carlquist and may just have them assemble the motor.this grasshopper a little tired of all the lessons.  me !
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted October 20, 2008 10:46 AM
Talked to Cometic and they don't use the material any more for the HP gasket. However they make thicker gaskets,up to .045 thick and all are three ply.I ordered a .035 seeing that the head and cylinder will be surface ground,should give me enough thickness to not have the center ply flutter in between cylinders.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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