MadMike
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posted April 09, 2008 09:58 PM
I used to smoke them also! I just quit pulling in the lever at high load... one note, make sure that the washer is under the top of the shaft, if it is not it will bind very easy! dont ask me how I know...
MTC/Muzzy and a couple of others do a mod where they put a support bearing into the clutch cover... that is supposed to be a fix also...
I hope that helps!
MM
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aliveagain
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posted April 10, 2008 02:39 AM
Why the anti seize on the bearing and shaft?
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zrexpilot
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posted April 10, 2008 03:48 PM
My mech. says the anti seize is better than high temp grease. ???????
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dougmeyer
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posted April 10, 2008 04:14 PM
OK Sure,
Absolutely no need for that much spring pressure. Back off on that. You can put 300 hp and more through a stock clutch pack and it won't slip unless you slip it. The "don't pull it in at high wheel speed" deal is relevant only to a lock up where the centrifugal weights can over stress the actuating mechanism.
Put some moly grease on the needle bearing and on the actuator as well as the tip of the push rod. head back towards a properly assembled and oiled stock clutch pack with the thicker steels (like in a Muzzy Kit- Yeah I know, nox it's a waste- yadda yadda...) There are THOUSANDS of these in the field that are working perfectly run after run.
Doug
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zrexpilot
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posted April 10, 2008 08:29 PM
 Edited By: zrexpilot on 10 Apr 2008 21:46
Looking at it today, its not the bearing thats the problem, the shaft itself is being stressed to the side by the actuator and binding in the trans shaft, this is whats causing the rod to spin.
agrevated by the high spring pressure.
We took .02 off the diameter of the shaft and put an oil hole in it. Just a try .
Will be running tommorow.
No doubt this is a piss poor design.
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zrexpilot
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posted April 10, 2008 08:55 PM
quote:
OK Sure,
Absolutely no need for that much spring pressure. Back off on that. You can put 300 hp and more through a stock clutch pack and it won't slip unless you slip it. The "don't pull it in at high wheel speed" deal is relevant only to a lock up where the centrifugal weights can over stress the actuating mechanism.
Put some moly grease on the needle bearing and on the actuator as well as the tip of the push rod. head back towards a properly assembled and oiled stock clutch pack with the thicker steels (like in a Muzzy Kit- Yeah I know, nox it's a waste- yadda yadda...) There are THOUSANDS of these in the field that are working perfectly run after run.
Doug
Thousands of them ? shit there aint but maybe 50 -12.s drag racing in the country and it seems everyone of those has had this problem.
300 hp on stock springs ? so I guess heavy springs are good for 500hp? No need for a lock -up guys.
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 05:02 AM
I will save my comments.......
We know whose stuff works and whose does not.......
BTW, I was told by a very reputable source, that the steels in the Muzzy kit are just CR 250 steels.......
Your stuff is messed up somewhere....., something minor causing big issues.......
I agree with Zrex, , thousands is a huge stretch.....
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 06:13 AM
Zrex, try running 3 stock springs, and 3 heavies..........
I did that until I got a lock up, and no issues.........
2002 model, all stock components............, at the time........
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zrexpilot
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posted April 11, 2008 07:37 AM
I just got it back togther. several issues, stack height was a tad high, cable adjust was a tad low, but....... I dont see it as the fix, the rod spins and it isnt suppose to. I pulled off a stock one off another bike and it show some wear, not bad but it still is doing it too, not near as bad as I say. The rod shows wear on the part that slides into the trans shaft, this tells me the actuator cannot pull it out straight enough and it will bind and cause the rod to spin.
ditched the anti -sieze but I doubt that will help anyway. Were evetually going to build a custom clutch cover with a worm drive clutch puller off a GS. Thats the plan anyway.
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 08:54 AM
I do know the mtc puller is different where it goes in the shaft.......
it only contacts at the very rear...., maybe something to that.......
Could just have been a compound of all the issues you had......., plus the uber heavy static pressure.......
You said you were running a stock clutch pack, how was the stack high?
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zrexpilot
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posted April 11, 2008 10:28 AM
A mix and match of thicker steels to get stack height. stack height was 2.290, thats .020 above the correct height got it at 2.280 right now. still .010 on the high side.
Shouldnt make a difference ,this is just a poor design.
Its all cause of the heavy springs, I guarantee it.
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 10:44 AM
Sounds like it.........
But, I would put a stock clutch pack in it. Any time I have deviated from the stock set up of stack height, and anti chatter rings, I have gotten ill results in consistency........
Just trying to help out.........
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MadMike
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posted April 11, 2008 06:17 PM
quote:
I will save my comments.......
BTW, I was told by a very reputable source, that the steels in the Muzzy kit are just CR 250 steels.......
quote]
This is completely FALSE... I bought some CR250 steels and fibers because I had heard the same thing... They are Not the same...
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MadMike
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posted April 11, 2008 06:30 PM
also one thing that I noticed... on the 00 puller shaft in the clutch cover, the center of the shaft is machined down so it is thick at the top and bottom. on the 01+ it is a solid piece... I also switched to that, and that helped... when I used to have issues the most was with a single stage lockup... and I think my rrrr's at launch were to high...
I dont know why you guys have a problem with the muzzy setup of the thick steels... I have been very consistant over the years with the muzzy clutch setup. no small fiber and no chatter springs... and I have won a lot of rounds over the years... 30 events wins and oh about 100 or so R/U's... since april of 2000...
I am not saying it is the best way, but it is not the wrong way... for sure... and I do go through some clutches though... but part of that is hotlapping at the end of every race... or running dual classes at one event...
I am sure the multi-stage is going to bring some changes, but my Muzzy clutch setup has sure paid for itself...
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 07:42 PM
Well, I guess that squashes the cr250 thing......
I won't say who told me that........
I launch at 7000, do now, did with the single stage........
launched at 7500 on the two step with bars a long time ago........, launch rpm is no problem for anything......, if you have things right.......
I would bet you had WAY too much weight on the single stage, and that caused your issues with the clutch.......
Most of the basket issues I saw as well, were guys running too much pressure, getting real agressive with the lever, and busting baskets on a good prepped track. zx9s have a lot of the same issues......, every built 998 zx9 I saw busted baskets every time they got real hard on the launch........
How I never broke a basket, launching on bars , 7 inch slick, at high rpm........
was that I ran a clutch......, not a coupler.
You will break the tire loose long before you slip the hp 9 times out of 10. The static pressure me and Paul Stuart run is off the wall........
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MadMike
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posted April 11, 2008 08:17 PM
I am ready to try the next thing... the multi... for sure! if it gives me clutch life... oh yea that is what I am after! oh and consistancy..
I bet a hundy your right on the weight issue!
and on the CR 250 thing they are close but not the same... the ID's are larger on the 250 if I remember correctly? it has been awhile...
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NOX
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posted April 11, 2008 09:13 PM
Well, next time we talk on the phone, I bet we know the same guy that said the 250 cr thing.......
I made a change to my multi the other day...., took 4 grams off the last stage........, gained .04 at 330........
Tee Hee.
MTC will not in a million years tell you to try what actually works on these things.......
They have to cover thier butts and make sure you dont fry plates I guess......
there is a line between using plates, and hauling the mail very consistently, an still not eating plates......., I am there, but I also know where the line is......, it is a fine line, but wide enough to walk and play on........
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dougmeyer
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posted April 12, 2008 03:27 AM
Many of you mis understand the reason the lock up exists. Yes the clutch pack WILL hold far more hp than than you realize. But when you induce a slip with the lever at the launch you degrade the ability of the clutch to hold once you're off the lever because you've heated it up beyond it's original design intent. The lockup makes up for that and clamps the pack tight, when oridinarily the steels would continue to slip due to the heat and glazing. It's just a different version of a slipper where you actually have LIGHTER springs which allow you to just throw the lever away at the launch. Really, you don't need anything more than three of the ZX-6 springs and 3 stockers in there.
And yes, THOUSANDS. Look, I love all you guys, but really think about it. Do you think that you're the only guys IN THE WORLD buying products online from the major aftermarket mfgs'. You think Rob would keep making and selling these products if he sold only a few hundred of them. I do not make this shit up......
Mad Mike knows....
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zrexpilot
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posted April 12, 2008 06:58 AM
heavy springs will do the same thing.
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NOX
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posted April 12, 2008 10:30 AM
No, they wont........., at a certain HP, it will slip.........
and heavy springs are a HUGE disadvantage on a marginal track. My bike will hook in a carwash......
I would be curious, how many clutch packs some of the serious racers here have purchased, either stock or from muzzys...........
I am on my second set of fibers, in 6 years..........
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zrexpilot
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posted April 12, 2008 11:12 AM
I understand nox, completely. He's saying, a lock-up will allow slip and then overcome a heated clutch pack with force. then says 3 zx6 springs is all you need. How is that going to overcome the heat you put in it by manually slipping it ?
Heavy springs are in between stock and a lock-up, You control it all with your hand, I dont have to tune for different track conditions, its all in the hand. granted I doubt I would ever get into the 1.2 short times but 1.3's arent out of the question on my hand. I have been 1.43.
Oh and by the way I ran last night and didnt have a problem with the rod, not yet anyway. Bike didnt pick up any with the extra 20 hp, actually went a tad slower, I think my gearing is all wrong. Going back to the track. I rode 4 different bikes last night.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 12, 2008 05:55 PM
NOX as I said once in an earler post on the other forum. You are the rare exception. You obviously have the skill to properly slip and hook up your clutch. That is not the norm, most riders just fry the hell out of them.
When servicing Rickey's clutches on the Shootout ZX-12 between rounds I would often not replace any plates and that was a 400 hp motorcycle. Many times it was just one or two glazed steels.
Sorry I was not clear on the springs comment. The ZX- 6 kit springs used on the lockup are used ALONG WITH three stockers. This gives a nice lever feel and with the lockup weights providing the needed grip at the higher boost downtrack.
I'm not saying I can ride like that, mind you. but it clearly can be done as NOX is proving.
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NOX
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posted April 13, 2008 06:32 PM
You might be spinning some.......
Thanks Doug.
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NOX
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posted April 13, 2008 06:46 PM
Most guys fry the hell out of a clutch, lock up or not, because they do not understand the system......,
I see guys fry clutches all the time with a lock up, not because it is set up wrong, but they dont know how to ride a bike with one, or keep trying to over ride it.......
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NOX
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posted April 13, 2008 07:57 PM
Guys, free advice, just in case you were thinking it..........
3 zx6 springs and three stockers only worked because that bike had so much hp........
in a lock up setting that is........
As Karl would say, your results may vary........lol
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