entropy
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posted December 31, 2007 05:08 PM
just for you, KZ!
KZ
Seems like you had a good idea.
yank the motor outa the bike for #12 this year...
(also made finding min CL's at reasonable PTV's a WHOLE lot easier  )
Anyway, this Bud's for you 
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KZScott
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posted December 31, 2007 08:50 PM
cheers! Im just finishing a bud and a steak right now
12 motor pulls just seems oddly appropriate for the baddest NA 12 i know of you better be careful though, you will have all the nuts and bolts worn out from over use! :P
i see you have the garage barbies put to work yet again :P i need to get a few to keep me motivated lol. too damn cold in the shop, still waiting on a guy to hook up the oil stove.... and on a big order from Schnitz 
happy new yr!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 31, 2007 09:39 PM
Dang, Karl I am Impressed!!!!
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madmike
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posted December 31, 2007 11:20 PM
oh not again bud...
that garage barbie's New Years Resolution better be... "I will not #$@# with the engine this year, I will not @#%@ with the engine this year..."
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aliveagain
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posted January 01, 2008 06:19 AM
Always the safety nut,huh Karl?Garage Barbie with the safety goggles.LOL I'ld like to see your method of lowering and lifting the motor to take it out now that you have a doctorate in 12ology.
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shiphteey
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posted January 01, 2008 07:21 AM
Karl.....I gotta ask.....what NOW?!?!?!?
Was it more of a reliability/durability issue....or yet another experiment for more HP?
Maybe ... BOTH!??!
Just seems like since I had a 12 I always relate the word "entropy" with "that big motor that is always getting torn down for some reason or other!"
Happy new years ... hope to line up w/the monster soon.....GIMME DA HIT!
A.
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entropy
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posted January 01, 2008 07:56 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 1 Jan 2008 11:59
#12 is not a tear down to shells so it only kinda counts.
Nothing broke, only 18 FactPro dyno steps on it .
I put the motor on the bench so i could more easily set the cams to the smallest CL's (102.3/102.6) which had OK PTV (.042"/.062").
Even with the TChin-un-patented-PTV-tool this was a 6 hr process on the bench.
Without Tim's PTV tool, i wouldn't even think of attempting this level of close tolerance.
#12's CL's give the highest overlap (47.5) my current config will allow; and the Senior Science Fair judges (Chin/DF) said my experiment has to include that test.
(and thanks to Tim Chin for telling me what overlap is...  )
Like Shifty says, #12 is yet another experiment to see how much hp my ever-suffering motor can make.
Two years ago Mountainmotor said a NA 1427 should be capable of 240-250STD DJ hp.
I really didn't believe him then; I do now...
Pete,
getting the motor in and out is really a breeze. Those 4 X 4's are just the right size to allow the motor to tip fwd and rest the oil pan on em (flat pan). No jack needed, only a lil Garage Barbie encouragement .
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KZScott
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posted January 01, 2008 11:12 AM
so when are you going to try coatings on the crank bearings? im sure MM will be following that thread if you do. 
one big question, what has stopped you from going to a 5mm crank? 1436cc. is it because you have a billet crank and dont want to turn it into a weld up?
keep the pics/info coming, i learn something in every one of your threads 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 01, 2008 12:05 PM
KZ
funny you should comment on bearing coatings/treatment.
I'm gonna send a set of bearings and tappets to Izumi at WPC as soon as the brown truck brings the parts. They'll go into the motor late Jan; 2008 build #1
I have never been a big fan of simple coatings, but WPC does a micro surface texturing before coating. The combo reallt seems to work.
I didn't go to a 5mm crank (or even bigger) because i didn't think of it at the time DOH!
When are you gonna get back to yr build?
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KZScott
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posted January 01, 2008 02:33 PM
i have been lazy, im waiting for a guy to come hook up the oil furnace in the shop so i dont have to work in freezing (literally!) conditions. it takes the fun out of it when your fingers go numb after awhile
I could finish my head, and finish polishing my subframe (might just bring the subframe into the house lol) but as far as the rest of the motor goes, Im waiting on over a grand worth of parts to get here in the mail
then i need to send a damaged cylinder block to Millennium or their Canadian distributor Fast Enterprises to fix some cracks and a scuffed up cylinder wall. 3 of 4 holes look fine, but they have to charge me for a 4 cylinder block instead of just the repair on one cylinder. aparently they have to do all 4 because of the plating process
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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ninja12
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posted January 01, 2008 08:17 PM
'then i need to send a damaged cylinder block to Millennium or their Canadian distributor Fast Enterprises to fix some cracks and a scuffed up cylinder wall. 3 of 4 holes look fine, but they have to charge me for a 4 cylinder block instead of just the repair on one cylinder. aparently they have to do all 4 because of the plating process "
Not much more to go 1270/1290.
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KZScott
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posted January 01, 2008 10:12 PM
quote:
'then i need to send a damaged cylinder block to Millennium or their Canadian distributor Fast Enterprises to fix some cracks and a scuffed up cylinder wall. 3 of 4 holes look fine, but they have to charge me for a 4 cylinder block instead of just the repair on one cylinder. aparently they have to do all 4 because of the plating process "
Not much more to go 1270/1290.
shhhhh
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
TRNorBRN6001
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posted January 03, 2008 02:36 PM
How's it going? Is that motor ready for some more dyno time?
Just curious if you have ever talked to Y2K, DarkFalcon, Mountain Motor
"higher velocity" crowd to see what they have to say on intake valve coatings.
I have seen some people use a red type of coat on some and was curious
if you knew what the substance was and if the purpose was to help intake flow
or to keep deposits/build up off the valve, or a combo of both. The coat was on
the stem side.
Would be nice if there was a thread or sticky on different Motor/thermal Coatings.
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KZScott
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posted January 03, 2008 03:28 PM
quote:
Would be nice if there was a thread or sticky on different Motor/thermal Coatings.
+1!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 04, 2008 12:54 AM
Edited By: entropy on 4 Jan 2008 01:00
quote:
How's it going? Is that motor ready for some more dyno time?.
Gary,
we had it on the dyno today.
The lower LC's gave 1- 5 more hp everywhere except at 12k (down 1.6 to 202.8)
now running at least 202hp from 10k to 12k
pretty damn happy with it!
BTW: I will start/pin a thread about surface treating & coatings pretty soon.
I know absolutely nothing about this topic outside of my limited (successful) experience with WPC, so i join you & KZ in being interested in learning more.
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tcchin
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posted January 04, 2008 02:13 AM
That coating/treatment thread will probably be even more convoluted and confusing than the topic it addresses. There are so many different processes and myths with so many emotions wrapped around them - it's going to make the dreaded oil threads look like a haiku. I couldn't even begin to imagine how such a beast would be organized to minimize cross-posting, mis-posting, hijacking, etc.! GFL.
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entropy
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posted January 04, 2008 02:33 AM
hey Tim,
up late, eh???
I just spent a couple hours looking at FP gas results, plotting stuff and convinced myself that we we need to back off on timing adv & adj fuel from 7k to 9.5k; as it seems very likely IMIO (In My Ignorant Opinion) we were getting some detonation esp at 9.5.
Maybe there are a few mid range ponies looking to be found.
Back to Andy's tomorrow.
OCD is raging!
BTW: i wonder if a treatment/coating thread will get much attention in any event, but why not try it, eh?
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted January 04, 2008 07:26 AM
Unfortunately, I doubt the thread would get much attention. I do not think too many people
on here would really care about it. As it may not be as appealing as just making good old
fashioned HP.
On a side note for Entropy, I do hear a nice ceramic coat on the pistons, combustion chamber and exhaust port might help prevent a little detonation. Keeps some heat out
of the piston, disperses heat from edges, disperses heat from valves and chamber, helps
to keep some heat out of the head from the exhaust port. Plus as a bonus it'll keep that
exhaust temp up in the ports for a little increase in velocity and expansion and maybe intake temps down a little (what is it like 1%HP for every decrease of 10F)........................but that's all hear say, as I do not have anything to quantify it.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted January 04, 2008 07:35 AM
Oops, forgot to mention it might just increase your CR a little.
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KZScott
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posted January 04, 2008 02:12 PM
Karl, as i understand it, the coatings on the bearings makes them thicker, so if I would normally run blues, and wanted a coating, would i have to go to a black or brown coated bearing, or is the coating thick enough to make that kind of difference? also im assuming different coatings have different thicknesses... nice and complicated lol
as to the the coating on your custom JE's, have they been "abused" enough yet to see if the coating helped to decrease wear on the skirts?
are these sorts of coatings priced to let a normal guy use them, or are they up there in the "nasa" stuff on your bike?:P (does the company have a site with prices?)
thx!
oh, what caused you to believe you had/have detonation? funny AF ratio?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 04, 2008 02:42 PM
Gary,
I like the idea of a ceramic coating but i'm gonna stick with basics until i get them nailed down; i'm too slow in the head to do more than one thing at once
KZ,
I don't know much about coatings, but i have had some work done(pistons) and a bunch of emails with Izumi of WPC. I will have a full set of shells and a set of buckets done this month.
WPC is a micro surface texturing treatment that is followed by one of several coatings.
The surface treatment + coating adds about .00004 in thickness (less than .5 ten thousandth), so no it will make no difference to your bearing selection.
A word about bearing selection. Since i started measuring the bearings accurately, on 3 occasions i have found bearings marked as browns, but were really blacks. be careful.
I firmly believe that the WPC treatment + coating made a big difference in my scuffed pistons. I believe enough to go to the next level and do the buckets and bearings.
Price? about $40/piston.
I don't know how you could tell detonation from AF (on a DynoJet), Johnny Cheese prob has a way. JC??????
On a FactoryPro you get levels of 4 gases: CO, total Hydrocarbons (HC), CO2, and O2; you do NOT get AF.
CO is a direct indicator of rich-lean with CO=4.0 relating to AF=12.8 +/-
looking at HC + CO2 gives a relatively direct way of detecting detonation. When HC gets high (<1000 or so), and CO2 gets low (<9.0 or so) it is likely that detonation is occuring.
That happened at 9000 and 9500 rpm AND Andy saw a momentary jump on the bikes temp gauge from 9pm to 10pm, another pretty direct indicator of detonation when the temp gauge had been running at 9m steady under load previously.
But really i shouldn't be answering yr questions; i know only enough to be dangerous.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted January 04, 2008 09:33 PM
Very cool info on detonation, I was going to ask if some of the gases Andy sniffed would allow for some insight on detonation.
I do hear that the Big car fellas that go around in a circle use a significant amount of coatings.
I have also heard that you are able to run slightly tighter clearances on items that have the dry film lube coat.........................................but that is something I have not been able to pin someone down to any exact spec.
Coatings have come down in cost and are with in the average persons grasp. I would not
go coat crazy, but determine what you may feel is needed for your application.
I have use CalicoCoatings.com
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KZScott
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posted January 04, 2008 10:18 PM
Great info guys, lots to think about
Im thinking if/when i go stroker(probly next season) ill copy Karls ideas (only on a smaller scale, i want a 1350cc class machine ) he will have lots of tests in by then Im SURE. my guess is 12 more teardowns for "expirements" :P
I thought i saw somewhere that when detonation occurs that you can get erratic spikes in the AF ratio. getting more than one flame front going could cause rich or lean spikes depending on how they happened(leaving pockets of unburnt gasses, or burning extra in the exhaust port somehow?). i believe thats what i read.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
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posted January 06, 2008 04:18 AM
quote:
Great info guys, lots to think about
Im thinking if/when i go stroker(probly next season) ill copy Karls ideas (only on a smaller scale, i want a 1350cc class machine ) he will have lots of tests in by then Im SURE. my guess is 12 more teardowns for "expirements" :P
I thought i saw somewhere that when detonation occurs that you can get erratic spikes in the AF ratio. getting more than one flame front going could cause rich or lean spikes depending on how they happened(leaving pockets of unburnt gasses, or burning extra in the exhaust port somehow?). i believe thats what i read.
KZ,
I hadn't heard that about AF ratio showing detonation, but i'll look at my AF log and see if it shows anything out of the ordinary when we did the 9000rpm step and probably (possibly?) had detonation.
BTW: i am a bit ahead of the 2008 schedule for "experiments"; split the cases yesterday for 2008-#1
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psycho1122
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posted January 07, 2008 08:24 AM
entropy;
Back when I put the ol' 1270 together, I also was concidering using some kind of thermal coating on the pistons. What I ended up doing is a circle car racing trick. I taped the ring lands, widdled all the sharp edges off the valve reliefs and smoothed everything with "tootsie rolls". I did this to prevent HOT spots in the combustion chamber. The next step was to bead blast the tops. This gives a Teflon "like" surface for the carbon to build up on. This process did not add any clearance issues and gives a nice velvety insulating layer on the piston top.
If you remember, this engine hit the dyno w/o any tuning at 185 h.p (170 stock w/ pipe).
With 105.5 in. / 100ex. LC's, 14:1 CR (no base gasket), cleaned up and matched intake ports, 2.5 deg. of static advance, same pipe, K&N Filters (junk) and giving it a 12:7-12:9 A/F mix with the PCIII and the sniffer (4 gas).....The little beast pumped out 202 h.p. and 111.5 ft. lbs. The first 100 ft. lbs. hit at 4,000! The least that I have seen on this engine on the dyno corrected is 194-195 h.p. Now most dyno's out here in AZ show close to 10% correction due to our environment and low oxygen content air. So to be fair, my UNcorrected h.p. #'s are 174 - 181 h.p. depending on conditions.
All this steam and I run all day on 91 pump. 1270 now has over 12,000 mi. and no issues.
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