KZScott
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posted December 22, 2007 11:07 PM
experts plz read my plugs?
OK so its not from my bike, but I know theres guys who have seen this sort of thing before.
1996 Wildcat 700cc 2 stroke twin. EFI , has been having some problems. sort of an intermittent thing where it feels like its running on one side. it can be really bad at idle, but clears up when you raise the rpm up most of the time, other times you have to crack it wfo to clear it up. sometimes driving along about 1/3 throttle it will start running on one side and you can hold it wfo and nothing happens(just runs like shit) but if you open and close the throttle quickly a few times it will work right.
it has also been using(loosing) a bit of coolant every time i have had it out. today i had the heads off and installed new head gaskets (actually 2 big orings per cylinder) and took it out for a big drive. worked like it allways had, lost a bit of coolant, but when it worked, it worked great..wtf? electrical? also wheres my leak? so i drove the piss out of it on a big straight strech when it was "working" and all was fine. backed off and drove easy for a bit. had to cross a few roads ect. so then i pick up the pace a bit, probly going half throttle, nothing crazy, and its like somebody hits the kill switch. no power, no nothing. shuts off completely right out of the blue. so i try to start it, a few little kicks, wont go. i think it flodded. pull fuse for fuel pump and injectors. pull over sdever times. get a few kicks, allmosts runs, then nothing(no gas left) put fuse back in. fuel pump pressurises system(i can hear it) pull over, get a few kicks. wont start. repeat that last little bit for half an hr. fuse in, fuse out....finally realise its not starting without some act of devine influence and dig out cell phone, call for a tow home. sore as all get out, my physio guy is going to give me hell(my shoulder allready is).
pull plugs. one white, one kinda wet fouled. both fire just fine when hooked up to plug wires. cant see any holes in pistons looking thru plug holes, both sides have compression(didnt measure, just put thumb over plug hole and got it popped off)
take pics of plugs. ask the experts....
any ideas guys?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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VincentHill
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posted December 23, 2007 11:30 AM
No Expert but Are you saying that the Gray and Brown plug came out of 1 Cylinder and the the second set the 2nd cylinder?? Do your throttle Bodies have 1 or 2 Blades each? If 2 blades then they are badly in need of Syncronization! Second, the light colored ones look to me like they are actually Lean and may be pulling metal from the Piston from the heat! Di they have "Separate" Coils to fire the Gray one vs the Brown one? Do they have separate timing for the Bray vs the Brown? The 4th one is the closest to OK, followed by the 2nd one on top! To REALLY Read a Plug, you need to see where the Porcelin meets the Metal in the center at the Base of the electrode. Also the edge of the electrode needs to be seen to see if it is rounded on the edge to see if it is melting! You need a Magnifying glass to see these things well!
All I can say for sure is the 2 Gray plugs scare Hell0 out of me! The other 2 are doing no work!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 23, 2007 11:48 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 23 Dec 2007 11:48
VH
it looks like that the 2 pix are of the same 2 plugs, just different lighting.
me, i could't read a plug even if a dictionary was supplied.
Listen to da perfessor.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted December 23, 2007 12:07 PM
Looks like the left cyl. (plug) is hurt...
Do a compression test...
Low compression cylinders on 2-strokes won't idle/run well down low but will tend to come in as RPM is increased...
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted December 23, 2007 01:40 PM
melted piston
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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VincentHill
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posted December 23, 2007 02:38 PM
Karl, you may be right! I was thinking that maybe he had 2 plugs per cylinder and a 4 valve engine that has dual Throttle Bodies!! I do not know what the Engine configuration is! I do know a distressed cylinder and there is not enough fuel in the Gray Plug cylinder and most likely the Rings are now part of the piston! Even if the tops look OK remove the Jugs and look at the Piston and see if the rings are free and no scoring or metal on the Cylinder sleeve
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted December 23, 2007 09:52 PM
YEEEup...
quote:
melted piston
Exactly what I though/knew... 
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KZScott
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posted December 23, 2007 10:25 PM
Karl you are right just 2 plugs diff angle/lighting(flash)
i really hope its not a melted piston
not sure when im going to pull it apart if a compression test says things are fukked , things are getting busy(merry christmas:P), but i snapped off a few pics to give everyone all the details on the motor.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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posted December 24, 2007 05:12 AM
quote:
the light colored ones look to me like they are actually Lean and may be pulling metal from the Piston from the heat!
The piston starts by spattering the metal from the crown first dimpling the Piston Crown! It is not the Piston's fault this is happening so something with the Fuel that is usually the problem then look at the timing! Right now it may be saved (Cylinder) too late for the Piston! Of course you were ALWAYS Using Stabil to make sure there are no fuel flow issues after sitting for long periods of time??
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Halvefast
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted December 24, 2007 06:59 AM
Do a pressure test as well as a compression test before you pull it down!
It will tell you where your lean condition is coming from, probably a bad seal or air leak in the cases.
Hope it all works out, snowmobiles are great fun when they aren't blowing up,
which is usuallly all the time 
Merry Christmas
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Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
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KZScott
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posted December 24, 2007 02:30 PM
Stabil...um opps nope. but this was the 3rd tank of gas i put through it this past week or so...and it had been just about empty when it was put away last yr.
pressure test = leak down test right?
i think the biggest problem is that this "arctic cat" motor is actually a zuk motor :P it was pretty hard to beat the old 1000 tcats though.... if this ends up being caused by the computer effing up and leaning out one side, it might become a megasquirt project....
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 24, 2007 03:10 PM
KZ,
can't you just yank the heads and take a peek??
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kingtramp
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted December 24, 2007 11:05 PM
air leak, leading towards lean condition
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VincentHill
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posted December 25, 2007 03:00 PM
The Problem with not using Stabil is even if the tank is empty, the fuel in the FI will still Gum up and then the tank has Air to condense and add water to the bad Gasoline! I have The Fitch Fuel Catalyst balls in my tanks but I still use some Stabil because it only helps the fuel in the tank and not the carbs or FI!
Maybe simple test is to either remove the injectors or FI and hook up the pump and see them SPray! If you see a difference that may be the problem. AIr leaks are usually in the Rubber Boots that hold the carbs or FI! Either a Crack or they leak where they mate to the cylinder or leak because of a looks clamp. A Base Gasket is a serious suspect because they use Cranl case vacuum to pull the fuel into the cylinder. If the base gasket is leaking then less fuel is pulled in and BINGO!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted December 27, 2007 06:45 AM
well i went ahead and pulled the head and cylinder that had the white plug as the injectors looked to be spraying the same(pull injectors and fuel rail and crank over motor). its not pretty
kinda looks like a turbo piston.... really thin! ouch!
rings are broken too
cylinder needs to be replaced or sent to millenium
i think it was the base gasket and also the efi system. it hasnt worked right in a few yrs, the dealer cant find the problem(they are ok for changing plugs and belts, but thats it, the most they will ever do on my 12 is change a tire, they arent touching the rest of it, i know better now) i still think the intermittent problem is electrical(spark or the fuel injection, not sure), but the lean condition was probly exaggerated by the base gasket. now that you mentioned it, i remember noticing a small flash of fire under the TB(on the lean side) when it backfired while i was trying to start it. in the middle of the night with the hood up.... the fukker is getting some liquid gasket when it goes back together along with the regular steel one.
i have another question about the injectors. as far as measuring flow, i can just connect them to 12v and have them spray into a measuring cup for a set amount of time correct?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted December 30, 2007 07:37 AM
Have them RC'd and know for sure!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zx12dak
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted January 10, 2008 07:43 PM
Edited By: zx12dak on 10 Jan 2008 19:45
I see you have twins on that Cat Scott. Were those factory with twins? I don't know much about those old Cats. Could have been from detonation from bad gas maybe but it sounds like you have a lean condition. My buddy had that happen last season on his ZR900. He went with SPI pistons and they seem to be a good stock replacement and a fair price. Another good place to get a jug redone is Automotive Engine Rebuilders in Waukesha, WI. (262) 521-2250
I have had them do some jugs for my old MXZ700 and they had fast service. I would check the reed boots for cracks as mentioned above. How many miles were on the motor?
Good luck!
Kevin
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KZScott
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posted January 10, 2008 08:39 PM
yup, factory twin pipes. we just took out the stock muffler and added a straight pipe to each to continue them out the bottom. nice and loud  thx for the tip on Automotive Engine Rebuilders. your buddy with the 900, did it take out both pistons or just 1?
not sure on miles...i would have to look. not a lot, its been blown up more than its been running the past few yrs
its probly just going to sit there as is till next winter. the 12 is using up more money than i have for it lol. im thinking about buying a 1000 tcat motor to wedge in the sled next season, and sell the 700 motor for parts...
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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Posts: 6520
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posted January 11, 2008 09:39 AM
Two things I would do FIRST! If there is aluminum on the cylinder walls, get some Muratic Acid (Home Depot for cleaning Concrete) and some acid Brushes) then outside the house on a steel table or plastic or glass top clean off all of the aluminum in the cylinder!
(The acid only eats the aluminum siezed on the cylinder the and Bore Coating should protect the cylinder)
#2, Run a De-Glazing hone a few times through the cylinder to get a new Cross Hatch and clean up things.
If you do not see any serious Vertical Grooves of more than 1/2 inch long I would then get a new Piston and rings and take 300 W&D Sand paper and carefully sand the Piston Skirt to get a Cross Hatch (Drag the paper at a 45 degree angle one way then the other! YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO REMOVE METAL, just scuff the piston)
Put it back together with some oil on the skirts and break it in carefully!
Make sure you know what caused this otherwise it will happen again!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted January 11, 2008 04:18 PM
very good tips VH! I will have to have a closer look at the cylinder, i thought the wall was ruined, but maybe it was a build up and just looking bad?
is the cross hatch on the piston skirt just a 2 stroke thing?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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zx12dak
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted January 12, 2008 05:48 AM
I second Vincent's instructions from above on the acid and honing. I have done that many times, unfortunatly. lol. If it's worn thru the nicalsil than you need a new jug, If it's not you are probably OK.
My buddy lost both pistions on the ZR900 EFI. We think it was from bad gas plus his 2 deg timing key. He needed only one new jug and got it from the place I mentioned.
I am not sure if I would run that sled without a muffler. On newer machines the can is importaint because of the back pressuse it holds. I am not sure if that machine is new enough to matter. But you may have lost substantial HP by doing this.I would at least try to find some stingers to put on it.
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2008 03:42 PM
quote:
I second Vincent's instructions from above on the acid and honing. I have done that many times, unfortunatly. lol. If it's worn thru the nicalsil than you need a new jug, If it's not you are probably OK.
My buddy lost both pistions on the ZR900 EFI. We think it was from bad gas plus his 2 deg timing key. He needed only one new jug and got it from the place I mentioned.
I am not sure if I would run that sled without a muffler. On newer machines the can is importaint because of the back pressuse it holds. I am not sure if that machine is new enough to matter. But you may have lost substantial HP by doing this.I would at least try to find some stingers to put on it.
Listen to this guy! When we were young and Stupid about 2 strokes we would put a Harley Sportster Muffler on the Bikes and then REALLY go slow!
I carefully sand every piston with either 320 or 240 Wet & Dry to put the cross Hatch on the piston Skirts. This allows the Oil to be retained. Pistons come with a cam ground that holds the oil but after useing them this wears away. When I take my engines apart, If I have done everything correctly, then I will still see ALL of my original sanding marks! (Showing that nothing was touching!)
Just take your time with the Acid because it can eat through about anything including your hand I am 100% serious about this! make sure you have a large bottle of water and a box of Baking Soda to neutralize the Acid!! Also do not breath the stuff when it is working! Watch but do not breathe! When you need to breath walk away then Breathe! It works fairly quickly but not in an instant!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2008 03:46 PM
BTW, your cylinder and Piston look like lean from fuel and Oil! I would look at the Reed Block. A Leaking Reed will do a lot of bad things. Not enough back pressure will also lean out by not keeping enough charge in the cylinder also!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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zx12dak
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted January 13, 2008 07:22 AM
That's funny about the sportster muffler on the 2 stoke Vincent!!! Was it the 4 stoke muffler or the fact that you put a Harley part on it that made it slow??? LOL. J/K
Yea Scott, you have to be careful what you do to a 2 stroke exhaust. What you did could make it leaner or possibly richer and one way or another you almost for sure lost HP. I run a Dynoport pipe/can on my Ski-doo which is a dyno proven set-up. If I were you I would probably put the stock muffler back on.
Good luck getting her going again!
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VincentHill
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posted January 13, 2008 02:40 PM
quote:
That's funny about the sportster muffler on the 2 stoke Vincent!!! Was it the 4 stoke muffler or the fact that you put a Harley part on it that made it slow??? LOL. J/K
Yea Scott, you have to be careful what you do to a 2 stroke exhaust. What you did could make it leaner or possibly richer and one way or another you almost for sure lost HP. I run a Dynoport pipe/can on my Ski-doo which is a dyno proven set-up. If I were you I would probably put the stock muffler back on.
Good luck getting her going again!
It was t he fact that t he 125 Hummer had 1.7 Brake HP to start and with that muffler i t may have lost 1/2 HP, A friend of mine had a 50 CC Parllia and he ran away from me! That was the First and Last Harley I have ever owned
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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