nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 12, 2007 05:57 PM
Like I said, I needed slip, and these guys told me to add static.........., read the post..........
Now, everyone read this........., this is some free advice, and it is gospel.........
You can go fast with wheel slip, I have went my fastest that way so far with my current set up......., ONCE. Just like the PS cars, and PS bikes change clutch set up track to track, YOU WILL HAVE TO AS WELL. Try that. You can go ALMOST as fast........, with a consistent hooking combo. I went 1.38 with tire spin, but I go 1.40 all freakin day with none..........., over, and over , and over. If you are not racing heads up for big bucks, forget that tire spin shit, the clutch has to be tuned for at at each track, because only a certain amount of tire speed gets it done, everything else will either bog, or just get stupid when the clutch locks up(or out in salsas case......(sorry, had to go there)).
If you want to tune for bog salsa, go ahead............
Salsa, with all the smack you have been talking me, you should already know this..........., you want to drop the hammer, and the rpms never come down, EVER!!!!!!!!!. Until the gear change, and they should just dip like normal. If you bog, or rpm dips, and with what you told me about your set up, you are to some degree, your clutch is not at its full potential. There is a way to get around it. Stuart Racing has it done to his.
Also, the guys you see leaving like a missle on videos doing 1.20 or something like that cant do it all the time. Get them on a HOT, 75 percent perfect track, and they have issues........
We were at the NOPI nationals in Memphis two years ago........., all the heavy hitters where there, Barry Henson, Stotz, Ricky Gadson, Shine, etc. First pass......., fastest bike......., Mikey Slowe, on a 60 inch, everyone else blew the tire, wrong set up. He went 7.8, they went 7.9 and 8.0s or slower.........., track was 138 degrees. they had to go back and change. You are at a two round time trial bracket race, (most of us are in this category), you dont need to mess with that, you need two solid time trials, and then start cutting heads, and making that 1000 dollar or 2000 dollar purse, or what ever........
Yes, I can go quicker than I am now.........., 4 times in a row on a marginal track........, maybe.......
Can I go .02 slower in 60 ft 4 times, you bet........, and be the last man standing at the end of the day............, I will take the latter. Most guys here will agree.
Now, If I enter a heads up event, very few here, ........, yeah, I will bow it up and go for broke, with 1198 cc, and no gas, I have to................., if I beat a bigger motor, or one with nos, or both, i kicked major ass, even better if i beat a blown bike,.
Last free advice........, if you have a killer 60, on a perfect track, a couple of times, what good is that come race day, when the track is marginal. while you are packing up, the other guys will be cooling thier motors and clutches for the final.............
Believe that. So sayeth the Nox;
BTW, no harm meant. Just tellin how it is. Also, there are other secrets to a lock up that no one in their right mind tells anyone, that will put you in the final few at every race, that does affect your short times.
Ever heard of a delay box? They were invented for a reason.
Oh, and it is harder than you think, if you dont know the abcdefg's........, more than abc's to doing it right.
I am tuning a board members clutch right now. MTC gave him a starting point. I thought it was wrong. I was right. He has purple plates now. We had to make a big jump, or he was going to fry a clutch pack. Now we are safe, and can tune it properly. MTC was sort of close, but not in the infield. They were in the parking lot of the ball park. We are just out side the bases, and can now make some fine tune adjustments.........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
  
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 13, 2007 03:51 AM
I do wish I had waited before I took the bars off, and ran it with the PCIIIR, and Brocks Sidewinder.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted September 13, 2007 06:23 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 13 Sep 2007 10:44
100% bait for you on my last two posts....figure you would not pass it up...it's like giving you truth serum...hehe..
I have alrerady done all I can to my bike for now.. no further progress with out going out and seeing what she does for now...
I hang out with a old bracket racer that has over 12 season years of championship under his belt .. just turned 60 ; 40 years of dragracing.. his frame is from 1972...he hauls my bike to the track on his trailer.. he is still my stiffest competition if you know what I mean...I will never be as consistent as him but still plan to kick his butt in a race or two...we give each other a hard time and he still tells me a lot..learned a lot from him as far as dragracing goes...he has thick skin like you would not believe...we need that agree?
Makes it fun for me and I don't take it personal in the end...just do my best...
Everyone at the track that races for points backs off some or they would never be consistent for bracket racing...I just do my own thing.. told you that before...it is a hobby I enjoy...not cheap.. but thats what I like..I do it my way on my terms...my time schedule..
I live God first then my family then people in this wolrd that are hurting and then my work.. then last my hobby...
you really should be more careful when you tell people their stuff won't work...not a very diplomatic way to establish any negotiations or good relations .. at least I don't think so..
49 years young and have had the pleasure of leading my Region at work in "Reliability Centered Maintenance" (look it up) on a power system that has high dollar integral equipment spaning inside installations that are 50-70 years old...manufacturers from all over the world of every decade involved since 1940's ...and working an engineering career with crafts and high tech professionals for the last 20 years...lots of other jobs in that time as well.. look up "Arc Flash.. " I lead that nowdays for my region that spans six States in the midwest..over 100 substation facilities...
this is childs play in comparison...
Take care Nox.. won't mess with you too much.. haver learned a few valuable things from you...
I try to learn from anyone that has something worth listening to...some of your stuff was and lots is not...
I sure don't know it all...it has been challenging..not all childs play to be fair...if it was too easy it would not be any fun...
stay in touch...you have learned a lot in dragracing..I appreciate you for that...
Edgar. 
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Salsa1
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 13, 2007 10:43 AM
Unless he is auto shifting and you are not, if your bike is set up right, no reason you cannot be as consistent as him. even if your clutch is not perfect, but sort of close, it will just be slow, but consistently slow. If it is not, then you have a bad set up and need to change it.
If you very with a two step, bars, and and lock up, over .02 in 60 ft for the day, unless you get a 20 degree temp change, your set up sucks.
No way around that. Just ask Stuart Racing how consistent he is now, and he is not using a two step........
Good luck with making that bog work for ya........., I tried to tell you.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted September 13, 2007 12:30 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 13 Sep 2007 14:29
Jesse Nox...Why in the world would I aim for a bog technique? It might happen.. oods are favorable that it will...I am set up with Cecil's recommendation... and those are from a guy that has experience with the ZX-10R..lots of it .. with and without a wheelie bar...
But I am so aware he is lighter than me and his setting may or may not work off the bat....I will not be surprised trust me on this... 
I will try it and see.. simple...I can adjust for both .. static pressure and add or subtract weight off the arms.. just like you ....just like anyone with half a brain would...
One thing I can do that is helpful is the fact that I can record each run with my wide band and on board data logger.. then play each run as slow as I want at my own sweet time at my home and see where and how much did I bog down or slip for any period of the entire run...for any given rpm in detail...
slick huh...bet you don't have that...  my two step is adjustable in 100 rpm increments..all the way to 9,900 rpm..will be starting with 8,500.. as per Cecil....remember he got 1.25s 60 ft.. hehe...
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One reason the old man I go with to the track is hard to beat is because he runs a snowmobile Rotax triple in his 1972 500cc Kawasaki drag racing frame...not a six speed and clutch like I have...get this... him and his bike set up weighs about a hundred pounds less than me and my light weight ZX-10R...
Engine core only costs him about $400.00 and he can do 9.3's easy if he wants to...he runs 9.3 to 9.5's on average depending on weather and air quality that given day...800cc...has done high 8's ... he brags at times about it...thats ok..he draws a crowd with his stories at the track...
all he has to do is be able to cut a good light which he masters pretty good...his tuning is in his snowmobile clutch which he knows exactly what is going on with it during every race close to perfection...
but he is still human...I cut a 034 to his 054 last time... he aims for .04 lights to be consistent.... but can cut a bulb as he says if has to... risky though...he has raced this season in pro-bike....he plays with that field as pro-bike at the track I go to are struggling to stay within a tenth of a second... his bike is set up to compete for the money class with cars where they run within hundredth of a second...
he can be beat and does not win every race but he is good...lots of good cars racing brackets also where I go...
I just play in the pro-bike myself to be honest....do plan on acquiring an auto shift...next season maybe...just finding the sweet spot for the lockup may take a while...
trust me I have heard all you had to say....hehe I salvaged what I could from it all...thanks!!
There is no other way than trying my set up out at this point... you don't really believe that if my clutch set up fails I plan to keep it do you?
give me a break...
have fun Nox...it's just racing...
and don't forget.. you were fired...you had your chance...and you blew it...I can demote you further if you insist....
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted September 13, 2007 01:57 PM
Edited By: Stuart Racing on 13 Sep 2007 14:58
If you saw my clutch setup,you would never beleive it would work as good,and smooth as it does...I don't think I even have to do a burn out , but the crowd likes to see SOME smoke...I'm 46 years old and have been dragracing M/C's for 20+ years...Just now getting into these newer sportbikes though..Been tuning/racing older KZ-GS's....Never knew that these ZX's liked these lockup's and reacted so good to them....Just thought you needed/wanted some help with your setup Salsa...I'm always open to new advice from NOX,MadMike,Entropy,J.C,ECT,ect.ect.ect....And would never fire any of them....LOL...
Cya,
Paul......
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 13, 2007 02:18 PM
You had said earler you wanted to tune for it coming out of a bog......., thats what I meant.
You have the general idea of how it works. But when it reaches its limit, more can be found, you just have to know what do machine on the single stage lock up to do it.
I really think Stuart could leave with just cleaning his tire most of the time if he ran a MCR with the hook up I set him up with........lol
Good luck, let us know if you break into the 1.30s.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
|
posted September 13, 2007 05:46 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 13 Sep 2007 19:25
sounds good Nox... she looks mean...if I was more ambitious I would have a laptop to make adjustments at the track...just shows I am in no real hurry... I just like this stuff.... am taking stock springs in case I need softer.. just put Barnett as per Cecil...10% stiffer...gives me a good idea of what increments to employ for varying static pressure...I cant find my washers from MTC that I could use to increase static pressure.. going without them...what the heck....
Last time I had gearing this low as I will have for this coming weekend (earlier this summer) she was coming out of the hole with a "take no prisoners attitude..." ultra soft Shinko was hooking up and in the third run it cost me an oil pan.. ended weekend prematurely....that won't happen now..
not for that reason anyways...heck it's all good...I go to have some unusual excitement and relax as well...
if I see progress to be too slow I will have the laptop at the track for analysis of each pass and get more serious next season.. I could be nitrous as is.. just too risky for my tastes and plenty of fun all motor as I see it...
All in it's good time.. better that way I believe...you have done good for yourself....I know that..
just lose the thou shall crash and burn crystal ball... I got a crystal ball too.. it says I can...not I can't..I am glad to have info from you....a lot of it made makes me think sharper and increase my insights...
will sell you my findings on the ZX-10R when I am done ....not really Nox .. if you know me at all you can count on me giving it away to forums like this....I enjoy that satisfaction more than money....
my checks come from the treasury of the United States...I can understand that not every one has that luxury.. I am a very blessed man...God has been so good to me that words of gratitude can only all short of justice he deserves.......ironically I see more often than not people being held back at the track for lack of funds.... not lack of talent....life can be a bit cruel that way....oh well...
You have lots of usable talent no doubt...
I know I owe God any success I have at all.....God is good!!!
have fun....
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Salsa1
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 14, 2007 06:00 AM
Have fun changing all those variables at once and knowing what did what..........
I am looking forward to being able to use Karls data logging system when I go down to Texas to help him out. Will make things so simple. I wish I had one. It will really help out the minor fine tuning, and let you make sometimes larger adjustments as needed.
I tuned a VROD dystroyer at the track a while back for a guy. He went from a best of 1.48 to 1.38 in two changes to the lock up alone, and it had more left. He understrood the process, but just did not believe it would work the way I told him. it was very easy, as he had a USB pC, and I was alble to look at his data, before ever seeing the bike run, and make a good decision on it. Yours will help you greatly, if you make educated decisions on what to do.
Good luck with it,
and really, no one here gives a shit about how much money you make, so get off it.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
|
posted September 14, 2007 07:24 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 14 Sep 2007 10:16
"Have fun changing all those variables at once and knowing what did what.........."
you are begining to understand my ability now...I keep each symptom separate..too much spin.. too much static pressure...ect...
good 60 ft...in the right direction...
thats why I do tons of research and ask a lot of diferent people seemingly dum questions...so when theory gets put into practice I can better tell what changes I need to make....
have not been harping on how much I make... just that it is not an issue for me.. and just expressed who I thank for it...I personally have good friends in dragracing that have been held back for lack of funds..just the truth...but I agree that mentioning that here was in bad taste.. I apologize for that...
Not much to do for now until I try my present set up...time will tell what is what...
I do find it hard to see a seamless transition between picking up 600lbs of machine and driver and keeping the rpm's up as high as you want ...with no dip whatsoever...
But if it can be done my money is on me to do it.. just like I said.. just need the right people to answer my questions...not needing too much second guessers or anoying pessimists on my team .. although I can make that help me as well...to a point...but that gets old fast...
Harley Destroyers do not normally do 1.38's... that is very good Nox....
Cecil basically told me I would not do 1.3's with my weight.. but low 1.4's is possible I think...
high 1.3's?? doubtful...but will milk my data and see how to make the best of it..thats all I can do...making it all work in itself is very rewarding... mid nines of lower nines.. just want it to work for now...I am having fun as it is...
One day at a time...
____________
Salsa1
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 14, 2007 08:06 AM
that harley had a normal wieght rider too, an older gent from OK. It was still bogging, I think 1.35 or better was easily available for him.
"...I keep each symptom separate..too much spin.. too much static pressure...ect...
" Not always, like I said, there is a certain variable you dont have done to your clutch. When you reach your limit, call me, and I will modify it, and you will gain some more.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
|
posted September 14, 2007 09:03 AM
If I was set to redesign the arms on the lockup I would place the weights either closer to the center of the hub and or keep existing weight placement in combo with...
What am I saying?
As an engineering project I would weld a place to have the centrifugal forces acting against the clutch pack softened so that the clutch would lock at an easier pace given any rpm...this is achieved by palceing exact weights closer to the center...basic physics...
your mod to the arns just alters the delivery of centrifugal forces to produce a smoother lockup clutch..
am I close?
be honest (if you can) lol...
____________
Salsa1
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 14, 2007 09:23 AM
Edited By: nox on 14 Sep 2007 10:30
Now you are getting it. We have done the same mods to the pro stock car clutches.
Seems like you are getting the concept.
Now apply it.
See if you can learn the behind the scenes secrets.............
When you are done, you should be able to make passes, withing .05 of eachother all day long. If you cant, you need to go back and find the problem.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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