salsa1
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posted September 10, 2007 06:00 PM
Chasis trivia? what you think?
Given a choice what would you take: (On a street drag bike set up)
1. "One more inch of wheelbase" (To go with a 6 inch swing arm extension and wheelie bar combo.)
2. One more inch lowered rear; (which will also help level the rear better with an already slammed front .)
I will be choosing number 2 . Please feel free to comment.....
Reasons for choosing is because my custom wheelie bar hits my rear brake caliper when the bike is lowered too much at the rear solid strut. So I have the rear kinda high.
But the rear can be lowered an inch if I scoot the wheelbase forward an inch....
so I have a choice.... 
what would you choose...? and why?
Have fun!! 
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nox
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posted September 10, 2007 06:44 PM
BOTH
Lower center of gravity is bettter, even in a bar set up............
Wheelbase , the shorter the bike is, the less smooth it will be, wanting to pogo on the bars, especially without a good smooth lockup setting.........
I would build a better bar set up........
NHRA has a bar length limit, there is a reason for that. Short wheeile bars are crappy........
On my 64 inch wb Pro et zx12, we ran 64 inch wheelie bars, as checked by tech.....
wheelie bar length is center is bike axle to center of wheelie bar axle. I assume you are using pingle bolt on bars............, which I believe, are short............
Given the choice, you really are not at a long enough wheel base, I was not either..........., I should have been 8 to 10 over, instead of 6. ............
I would lower it, because as messed up as your clutch set up is right now, it will not make a difference one way or another...........
Believe that.
Good luck.
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salsa1
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posted September 11, 2007 06:36 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 11 Sep 2007 07:43
May not be so messed up Nox... got info from someone achieving 1.25 sec 60 ft times.. on a ZX-10R just like mine ...
He even gets 1.25 sec 60 ft with his lockup set up with no bar.. just swing arm extensions...
That is better than what you have been able to get correct? I can fine tune static pressure as I go along ... just not rocket science....will have people watch me at launch to provide feed back when I can...
I believe that...  will let you know how I do ...plan to kick butt... I like my plan...I will arrive at my best for my weight and bike.....
big difference between a NHRA bike running prostar HP and my stock motor...
take care...
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nox
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posted September 11, 2007 08:25 AM
We are talking stock hp.
I would have to see the 1.25 time slips to believe it.........., I think all here will call bs on that until it is proven..........., that is near what Formula Superbike used to run, and they ran BIIIIGGGGGG motors, with Ryan on them. I know it can be done, but I just dont see it in a stock chassis with bars. Anyone who differs, please chime in, cause otherwise, I have been taught wrong...........
Also, what is the rider weight,...........
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salsa1
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posted September 11, 2007 10:17 AM
http://htpperformance.com/racing.html
Ask for Cecil...I believe he is also the owner of this performance drag shop.. please be nice...I am sure he is a lot more light weight than me...ask him what you like... very nice guy.. no bs straight up...
also.. the following on the net.. easy to find this stuff... lol...I already established a baseline first time out.. with just 4 runs...all is working.. including short wheeliebar...:I run IHRA.. not NHRA.. must be the reason it all is working for me just fine...lol...
A lockout is designed to do two things, (1) eliminate excessive clutch slippage to facilitate the transfer
of as much horsepower to the rear tires as possible and (2) make the bike quicker. Many people install
a lockout only for the purpose of keeping the clutch from slipping, but if you are willing to do some
experimenting with spring pressure and lockout weight, in many instances you can make the bike
quicker. There are many different rider,engine,bike and weight combinations, do what works best for
your specific setup and not what the current lucky guy setup is. His setup may be completely wrong for
your bike .Best case scenario is to Set your clutch up to work as a 2 stage clutch, some slippage out of
the hole then Lockup the clutch as early as possible.
The spring pressure regulates how hard that the bike leaves from the start.
If the spring pressure is to stiff it can cause excessive tire spin. If the springs are to soft it can cause
excessive clutch slippage. By setting up your clutch to have a small amount of slippage off the line you
will keep the rpm's of the engine up and eliminate some excessive tire spin. Remember you want to
move forward as quick as possible,(not sit and spin).you want to use the stiffest springs that you can
without spinning the tires off the line. If you are running the bike on a track your 60' times are a great
way to tune your spring pressure. It is best to start with your stock springs and make some passes to
establish a baseline 60' time. Gradually add stiffer springs until your 60' times begin to slow from
excessive tire spin out of the hole. You can alternate your springs some stiff some soft. You can also
add or subtract weight to the fingers themselves to apply more or less lockup. Do some experimenting
and find what works best with your bike and riding conditions.
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Stuart Racing
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N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted September 11, 2007 12:01 PM
Lockup or lockout....Never heard of a lockout....But anyways, mine is setup just as explained in your thread...Been telling people about how this is supposed to work for a long time(not on zx12's),but older KZ's and GS's....If it's right, it works killer,(faster too)...
Good point,
Paul.....
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salsa1
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posted September 11, 2007 01:26 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 11 Sep 2007 14:33
The lockup performs the lockout of unwanted slippage...
For reference ..I just seen for myself an older kz900 chasis with an 160 lb rider - 1260 motor do a 1.28 60 FT.. last week.. guy showed me the time slip cause I asked him...I am running close mph as he was and was curious...am sure I will never get 1.28 with my weight...don'r expect to...
will lower the bike.. was trying to see what discusion could be generated...I find these topics interesting and can be educational...I like the physics that are involved...
Have fun...
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nox
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted September 11, 2007 02:53 PM
Salsa, that is exactly why I told you your clutch was set up wrong.........., you seem to have the jist of what it is supposed to do.........
I still do not see a 1.25 coming out of a 10 on a stock chassis, with stock motor, even with bars, not with a single stage lock up......
Paul, have you had a chance to try the set up I told you yet........., I want to see those ets lowered!!!!!!!
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Stuart Racing
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posted September 11, 2007 03:27 PM
Hey NOX,still waiting for the gearing that you suggested that I try....Sprocket Specialties makes them to order...They don't have stock(I guess)....But I can tell that it's gonna be the cats ass on the gearing...I WILL let you know as soon as I get some data....I hope you get your's straightened out..When I was building KZ motors,we would debate on which crank to go with 900," porkchop" lightweight crank or the 1000 MK11 heavy crank...You could really tell the difference(60'-e/t-ect.ect.ect.)...Which one ya goin with,light or heavy????
P.......
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posted September 11, 2007 03:33 PM
quote:
The lockup performs the lockout of unwanted slippage...
For reference ..I just seen for myself an older kz900 chasis with an 160 lb rider - 1260 motor do a 1.28 60 FT.. last week.. guy showed me the time slip cause I asked him...I am running close mph as he was and was curious...am sure I will never get 1.28 with my weight...don'r expect to...
will lower the bike.. was trying to see what discusion could be generated...I find these topics interesting and can be educational...I like the physics that are involved...
Have fun...
Was that KZ1260 with or without bars,slick or street tire,extended or stock length???Anymore info on it...
I had one with bars and a slick(5" goodyear)& 4"over arm,that did some 1.2's to 1.3's@ 60' times with a single stage lockup...9.46@139mph....
P...
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nox
Needs a job
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posted September 11, 2007 03:47 PM
Pual, I hope you have not ordered it yet, Vortex would have had that in stock.........
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nox
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted September 11, 2007 03:48 PM
Crank wise, you tell me, which will be quicker, I want speed baby..........
If a 2000 is faster, then I will go that rout..........
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Stuart Racing
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posted September 11, 2007 04:02 PM
Edited By: Stuart Racing on 11 Sep 2007 17:06
Heavy,It'll carry your momentum all the way to the end of the 1/4 mile or 1000' whatever track you are running...You already got a handle on the 60' part of your setup RIGHT????LOL......You don't need to worry about the leave .Let the momentum of the heavy crank do it's thing...JMO...
Forgot all about Vortex...Oh well...Lemme know which crank ya gonna get..
P.........
The lighter cranks were too inconsistant,sometimes it would hook and then at times it would spin...But that was in a wheelie bar,and slick tired bikes...
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nox
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Posts: 3745
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posted September 11, 2007 04:16 PM
Thats interesting...........
I know with a 2002 set up, I would for sure not have to change my "lock out" clutch.......lol
Just kidding salsa......
Thanks for the info Paul.
WIsh I had the dough to build a ;;monstor right now, gotta line the trailer deal out first.........
____________
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salsa1
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posted September 11, 2007 08:31 PM
Was that KZ1260 with or without bars,slick or street tire,extended or stock length???Anymore info on it...
I had one with bars and a slick(5" goodyear)& 4"over arm,that did some 1.2's to 1.3's@ 60' times with a single stage lockup...9.46@139mph....
Sure.. known the guy for 15 years when I first messed at all with drag racing...I don't race every year..my present set up is somewhat serious for my doings...just spent three more hours setting up wheelie bar with lowered frame one and a half inches at the rear.. all is solid and squared as I do my stuff...
KZ1260 has bars and slick not sure if extended don't think so...9.411 137 mph on that run.. seen him do consistent 9.3's.. regular at bracket racing.. this is actually his back up bike..
no problem Nox.. I have gathered Nox is an abbreviation for abNoxious....I expect no less....
I would hate to bother Cecil after he gave me what I needed for a good start on my lock up clutch for free...he had no issues with it.. but call him up as he might be able to help ya out seeing what he has been able to do....I don't see a guy with his shop needing to BS and ruin his credibility with petty claims he cannot backup...just look at the engine work his shop provides...might tell you a few things.. then again might not...
nothing I can do about that right?
have fun guys...
____________
Salsa1
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted September 12, 2007 04:43 AM
always remember, you can take that motor, and put in in a drag bike chassis, and pick up so much 60 foot it aint funny........
Yes, short for obNOXiouis, my daughter could never get it right, so now, I am "Nox" to everyone, but "Daddy Nox" to her...........
ANd yes, it really is tatttooed on my upper arm
What is the scoop on that zx10 with the 1.25, multi, single? Chassis, motor?
I have done 1.32 with slick and bars with no pc, no pipe, and just u4 on a 12, but that was traction limited, if I had more track to play with, I could have seen lower........
Also, when you take a drag chassis into effect........, like Craig Treble's bracket busa, he only runs high 8s, at a pretty low mph........., like 150, but does 1.17 short times........., with a slider, and 10 inch tire, bone stock busa with a pipe and lectrons......., it is light, and it has a true built chassis....... THese sport bike chassis are not built to do that.......
Same goes for cars, thats why they build a tube chassis car to drag race...........
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 05:14 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 12 Sep 2007 06:35
I will just bring up the fact that the ZX-10R is at least 70 lbs lighter than the 12R...
from memory the lightest 12R I recal was 445 lbs dry weight maybe more.. the 2004 10R is 375 lbs dry weight... I have verified this (ZX-10R weight) at the track scales... me and bike weight 625 lbs race trim...
A guy with a dyno and extensive shop services including stage 3 turbo services tuned for customer to drive out (just to mention one of the sevices; over 15G $$) should be able to cut down from a 1.32 to a 1.25 with a light rider any day of the week....
http://htpperformance.com/store.html
don't see a reason to further elaborate .. you think?
I agree with you a 100% in that a drag race chasis is superior and will out do a street chasis....they cost $$...and it should perform better......have known of Hayabusas in the low 8's with an aftermarket chasis...very true ; good point.....
Take care Nox.. keep the eye of the tiger..give em hell...
wish me luck at the track...I might need it...
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nox
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posted September 12, 2007 06:05 AM
Try 430 wet baby.........my 12
You have not told me anything, and I am not trying to fight. I just wanted to know, what type of bike did that 1.25, stretched?, outlaw, what. Bars,
If it was a big hp, with a multi and light rider, and either real long, or long with bars, I can see it........
If it was done with a 68 turbo and a multi, it is apples tor oranges............
If it was a stretched stock 10, with bars and a slick, I would say someone knows thier shit, and had the two step HIGH and had a good clutch tune and light to average wieght rider. Two different animals, you see what I am saying?
Good luck.
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 06:33 AM
Not fighting either.. you did 1.32 with no big hp and no multi.. extended wrong as you have said (not long enough) and you just threw some U4 at it ...on a heavier bike...
so a higher hp lighter bike set up properly did 1.25...
I believe it.... you don't want to and I do not have proof... no big deal...of course you don't have proof it cannot be done and the evidence clearly shows it CAN be done...like I said call the guy up if it means anything to you...I don't know Cecil all that much... I understand more than you think and I just believe him based on what I know.....and knowing it is very possible...
I will do what I can at the track ...thats all...will let you know how I do...I will say this .. it's a big world and there is lots of achievments you and me have not seen out there... always people there to say it cannot be done... and always people there to prove them wrong....
NHRA has precautionary rules and measures to ensure safety...my set up is not intimidating to me in the least.. just a mid nine second bike...if it was a 180 -200 mph bike in the 1/4 I would have to be more concerned.. if you know what I mean.. I think you do...my bike goes straight as an arrow and I work hard to make sure it is a straight as possible...and if it shows signs of going crooked at the track I will back off....and straighten whatever out...thats what engineers do...thats what I am...thats what I do for a living...
I will find out where I am at at the track.. not by talking about it.. talking about it helps to start ...
but thats all....I understand what you are saying as well.....
have fun Nox...
my respects...
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 08:36 AM
Btw..Your fired Nox...
I admit I do not have all the facts on how a 10R got a 1.25...
lots of people can set up a lockup to work well...not just you right?
give me that much Nox... pleeeeeeeeease....
Been fun debating...now it's time to see what actually happens...
we got next season to follow up after this weekend....in any case....
Thanks!
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nox
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posted September 12, 2007 11:29 AM
Well, if it does it with that low torque, I will be surprized. I think to do it, you would have to wick it up to 10000 on the two step to get up in the meat of the motor......., which, as you know, will change the lock up tune........
Mid 1.30s to mid 1.20s is a HUGE jump. I know Rob Muzzy told me the Formula Superbike that Ryan used to ride did 1.20s. And you know it had HP, cause it was doing LOWWWW 8s.
Fired, thats funny. Yes, lots can do it. Never said they could not. If you have someone close that will help you, then great. No one here will do that. Its kinda cut throat, and in a lot of places , it is. I know it was at NHRA Di v 4 races. No info was given there..........
Well, I take that back, incorrect info was given. I was told to get my clutch to slip more, to stack abunch of washers on the springs............
Think about that one.........
Good luck with it. I do think mid 1.30s are surely attainable when you get a handle on it, and when you get to a wall, send it to me, and I will modify it........, and you will have more left. Not a ton, but maybe a half a tenth. Difference between 9.05 and 8.95 could be worth it..........
Be safe.
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 11:50 AM
http://htpperformance.com/cecil.html
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 04:31 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 12 Sep 2007 17:43
"I think to do it, you would have to wick it up to 10000 on the two step to get up in the meat of the motor......., which, as you know, will change the lock up tune........"
What about getting the centrifugal forces coming in at the right time? cannot be done? at the right rpm....you want the motor to bog in a bit at loading phase and pull quick from that out for a clean launch....
some tire slip is ok... as the article on the lockout says .. let the 60 ft times you get be a great part of your guide...
the lockout instructions I posted was formulated by four wheelers... they must call a lockup a lockout....don't shoot the messenger....: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:YEz2hfuxfFwJ:www.directdrivecnc.net/banlockout.html+BANSHEE+LOCKOUT&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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Stuart Racing
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posted September 12, 2007 04:36 PM
About wheelie bar length and wheelbase length...I had a dragbike that the wheelie bars were 3" longer than my wheel base...What a nice leaving bike(really sweet)....Totally not legal per N.H.R.A rules...But it sure was nice...Now I have a bike that is 68" wheelbase NO wheelie bars and a killer lockup program,(thanks NOX)for the help,and IT leaves really SWEET too...
See y'all,
Paul......
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salsa1
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posted September 12, 2007 04:40 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 12 Sep 2007 17:49
"Well, I take that back, incorrect info was given. I was told to get my clutch to slip more, to stack abunch of washers on the springs............
Think about that one........."
Ok you should have brought me along with you.....I would have advised you to take the bunch of washers and systematically use them to increase slip...and keep log notes on how each increase of washers affected your 60 ft times...of course it goes without needing to say much that if your static pressure was too much already at the time to try to find weaker springs and systematically relieve static pressure....don't even need my education as an engineer for that.......ABC'S of tuning a lockup clutch...... go back and forth noting track conditions until you have a good 60 ft.. how hard is that?
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