entropy
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posted April 09, 2005 01:36 AM
Carillo H rods in a 12: clearancing needed?
I am finally springing for Carillo H rods. Hey, Coby & Brock both strongly suggested them, so who am I to argue 
Even tho they seem to be in short supply, Cheeseman now has a set in his hot lil hands. Woo-hoo!
I seem to remember that clearancing is needed of the cases and starter gear????
Anyone done it? Suggestions??
Thanks in advance,
Karl
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MadMike
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posted April 09, 2005 06:17 AM
I know you need .040" min. on everthing.
I believe it is one of the bolt heads can hit.
give ryan a call he had to do some stuff when he put his 1375 together.
MM
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kcadby
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posted April 09, 2005 11:23 AM
The starter gear needs to be clearanced-and -or-moved over...
I ground on the Gear AND spaced it over some in the case (which required machining the case)...
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spencercyclecom
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posted April 09, 2005 05:17 PM
they arnt in short supply...only if you need special stuff done to them.
but the #3 will hit the starter gear...you will need to do a Kevin has said....machine the starter gear and cases. WHEEW! You had balls running stock rods in a stroker...done slung a few out the front of zx12 on the dyno.....
Karl...
refresh me....what did you guys do to solve your oiling problem????
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entropy
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posted April 10, 2005 04:31 AM
thanks for the info.
could you be a little more specific in exactly how much material needs to be taken off the cases, where?
how much material need to be taken off the starter gear & where?
Doug,
the only mods which JC has done to the oiling is the 2 new "sprayers" for the underside of the pistons. new oil pump, new oil cooler (just to be safe), and we are adding the Coby Pan which Coby says helps prevent oil starvation on launch. I haven't seen it yet, but should get it in a week or so. Hoping to get a Brock SW soon thereafter
Muzzy told me to run stock rods; but Coby was pretty insistent that for stroker/offset bore set up gotta have stiffer rods.
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entropy
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posted April 10, 2005 08:43 AM
duh...
did a thread search and found this by Doug Meyer:
"When I used the Falicons in my 1340, I took the starter drive gear, chucked it in a lathe and simply with a file, took about half the width of the teeth off at about a 45 deg angle about 1mm deep at the "corner" of the tooth.Still plenty of engagement and the "contact point" (the pitch circle) of the gear is not touched. BTW- the interference is from the bolt head, not the rod itself.
Doug"
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johnnycheese
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posted April 10, 2005 08:45 AM
that is for the falicon rod the carrillo is bigger if I anm not mistaken
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spencercyclecom
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posted April 10, 2005 05:37 PM
yes..a little bigger...but the same method needs to be done....Coby is correct about the offset bore...that will kill any rod.... but stronger rods are needed when doing it. I have seen the rods break at the wrist pin and crack under the pin boss.....
but you have done right
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Doug Ray
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MadMike
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posted April 10, 2005 06:34 PM
good luck Karl!!! go get them man!!
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spencercyclecom
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posted April 10, 2005 07:37 PM
Check your PM Mike
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MadMike
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posted April 10, 2005 08:03 PM
PM'ed ya back...
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kcadby
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posted April 13, 2005 11:17 AM
 Edited By: kcadby on 13 Apr 2005 12:19
I "moved the gear over" in the cases (also) because I didn't want to take THAT much off of the gear on this guys "StreetBike" 
Didn't want to chance the gear (tooth/teeth) breaking...
I'd tell you how much but...like everything else??? I DON'T remember 
I did it until it was ENOUGH ...LOL...
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entropy
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posted April 17, 2005 07:50 AM
Edited By: entropy on 17 Apr 2005 11:10
OK, got the cases clearanced, really no big deal.
A dremel and some prussion blue is all you need (the starter gear is another story).
some observations for my 87mm, 4.6mm weldup stroker:
1. WhyTF Muzzy sells 87mm pistons WHICH WILL NOT WORK IN A STROKER is beyond me. First thing you gotta do is dremel off some extra material on the pistons which sticks above the pin bosses. No biggie, just an extra step. (The 87's do work in a billet 4.6 'cause the counterweights are cut back)
2. assemble a piston & rod, put in #4 hole with block, spacer, upper case, and head.
- Sit the assembly on the head, put several main bearings in, lay the crank in.
- put bearings in the rod, put the the rod on the crank, barely tighten it.
- put the lower case on and rotate the crank until the rear rod bolt hits the lower case,
- remove the lower case, dremel a bit of clearance.
- put prussian blue on the dremeled part
- back with the lower case, rotate crank, bump case, dremel, repeat until it swings free
- loosen the rear rod bolt .040" ,(as suggested, seems like a good clearance in case you lose a bearing)
- repeat the prussian blue, and dremeling until the .040" swings.
3. #1 & #4 needed some clearancing, #2, #3 none
Next will be the starter gear (#3 rod hits it).
KC says move the gear over and cut it back a bit.
Coby said take a bit of material off the side of the rod where it bolts together and cut the gear a bit.
I'll take it to my toolmaker pal, Al on Wed. He'll figure it out. Real easy to get at so one way or the other we oughta have it swinging free by next Fri so Cheeseman can bolt 'er up, cc, platiguage, clay , etc.
When all is clearanced, I'll weight and match pistons, rods wieght
Feels good to be making progress!
Thanks for the tips.
PS: JC: I KNEW I forgot something... The blue rod bearings... (i have the blacks & browns)
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johnnycheese
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posted April 17, 2005 08:09 AM
yeo I saw them at about 12:00 noon need me to send them?
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aliveagain
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posted April 17, 2005 10:23 AM
Thanks entropy for all the info.I'm right behind you by about 2 weeks in doing the same build.I did not know about the pistons hitting.I'm still confused as to which way the starter gear has to be moved but I suppose it will be apparent on assembly.
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entropy
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posted April 17, 2005 10:30 AM
AA,
I'm gonna try & do it without moving the starter gear, but i'll know more on Wed.
You are doing 87mm pistons and 4.6mm stroker???
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aliveagain
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posted April 17, 2005 01:02 PM
Yes but mine is a SBM block so there is no offset(if that matters)and I'll be using falicon rods.The pistons are JE.I just finished cleaning the casing halves of those little nasties and checked the condition of the oil pump.I did see some marks on the side of the casing,#4 crank bearing,that had wear marks on both sides.Don't know if that is normal.
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entropy
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posted April 17, 2005 01:38 PM
marks on the side of the casing??? #4 main??? I can't picture it.
Did you check the crank thrust surfaces???? #2 main, upper case, just above the bearing.
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aliveagain
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posted April 17, 2005 06:28 PM
My bad,you're right upper #2.Is that normal to rub on there?I'ld be interested in what your shim for the starter gear looks like.I was wondering what they do to the casing with a 5 or 6mm stroke if at 4.6 the casing needs to be ground.
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entropy
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posted April 17, 2005 10:34 PM
it is normal to rub there (thrust surfaces) but the cases need to be replaced if those surfaces are damaged too much. Bad design by Kwak; Busa has replaceable inserts.
I I believe that over 4.6mm requires an external starter.
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entropy
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posted April 20, 2005 09:39 AM
Done with clearancing.
Al measured the interferance at .010", then took .020" off the gear extending the cut across the shoulder which houses the circlip, assembled it, ant it had about .010 clearance, He took another .010" then another.010" and we ended up with about .025-.030" clearance. Took less than an hour even stopping to BS. Didn't need to touch the rod .
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