psycho1122
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posted November 18, 2004 10:48 PM
You two are indictaing that the R&D trans does not use stock gears?
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psycho1122
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posted November 21, 2004 10:20 AM
????
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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matt sterbator
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posted November 21, 2004 10:57 AM
Who's indicating that ?
I'm indicating the fact that the stock gears are weak. I'm also indicating that there are more instances of broken stock transmissions than broken undercut transmissions. No one, nowhere, said that R&D didn't modify the stock gears.
The ROOT of the problem was a broken transmission. The ROOT of the problem was fixed by replacing the transmission. Where or who it came from doesn't matter, nor does it matter what was done to the transmission. The ROOT has been dealt with 
I'm "indicating" that there seem to be more instances of broken stock "unmodified" transmissions, than broken "modified" transmissions (like an undercut R&D). However, there aren't enough examples of breakage of either one to say one is worse than the other.
I guess I should be saying "tick tock tick tock" to everyone with stock transmissions now. Then we'll have both bases covered with this little crusade, and atleast one of us will be able to say "I told you so".
..or we can just enjoy riding the bikes. 
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted November 22, 2004 05:40 PM
Both of you are silly! The stock gears are already undercut.......hahaha That was previously established some years back.......Look at them closely or you can pay R&D to do something KMC did to the OEM gears and "FEEL" you got something.
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psycho1122
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posted November 22, 2004 10:55 PM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 22 Nov 2004 22:56
matt;
Your obviously talking YOURSELF into some false sense of security.
If you don't have Billet Gears, you will probably revisit this issue down the road. No "crusade"....Just Reality.
Ra; 5th and 6th are undercut on the Input shaft.
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matt sterbator
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posted November 23, 2004 12:03 AM
Edited By: matt sterbator on 23 Nov 2004 00:04
I'm no more secure, or unsecure than I was the minute the trans broke in the first place
Actually, I'd be MORE concerned with the stock unmodified trans in my 206hp 1287. Especially seeing as how the STOCK trans has been proven to be more subject to breakage than one that's been undercut. 
It seems as though your little crusade is somehow making you feel as though you know something that everyone else hasn't already figured out LONG ago. However, because it happened to you, the sky is falling on anyone who chooses to go that route.
I'm just not going to worry myself silly about it when every single stock transmission out there has the SAME, if not MORE of a chance of failure as the one we put in this bike... and certainly not because of someone, ONE person who had one fail on them is trying to say "I told you so" before it even happens
...but if it makes ya feel better, more power to ya
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted November 23, 2004 04:53 AM
Everything breaks sooner or later!
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted November 23, 2004 10:14 AM
quote:
Actually, I'd be MORE concerned with the stock unmodified trans in my 206hp 1287. Especially seeing as how the STOCK trans has been proven to be more subject to breakage than one that's been undercut.
Your kidding right? It's very apparent that you do not understand how undercutting will critically weaken an already poor design. Your better off replacing the gears w/ OEM than undercutting. What is it about this you do not understand? Modified STOCK gears does not mean "Stronger".
In regards to STOCK trans being "proven" to be more subjuct to breakage......Can you state where in this forum or others this has been noted? I've been on since 2000 and have not seen any such issue other than CLUTCH.
BTW...this is not a "Crusade". I'm willing to provide accurate info on issues if I feel I can.
You can go ahead and keep you head in the sand on this one, I do not wish any failures on you Good Luck.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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your car is slow
Needs a job
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posted November 23, 2004 10:17 AM
what about a cryo'd undercut trans?
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matt sterbator
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posted November 23, 2004 05:50 PM
quote:
Everything breaks sooner or later!
Hey, atleast someone gets it.
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yzfone
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 23, 2004 06:20 PM
Does anyone have any contact info for Robinson Industries?
Thanks
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
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posted November 23, 2004 07:00 PM
Thats a time bomb you can hear tick all the way down the block...lol
quote:
what about a cryo'd undercut trans?
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 23, 2004 07:15 PM
quote:
Everything breaks sooner or later!
Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winnner!!!!
you guys are crazy! I have over 8500 miles, and oh about 2500 dragstrip passes on my tranny!! 2 years ago I had it undercut, still no problems. I noticed a difference with the undercut. it shifted smoother and more solid after being undercut. I have abused my tranny probably worse then almost anyone on this board, and it still keeps going. It will not last forever, like anything! but it is built strong, in my opinion!
Mad Mike.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted November 23, 2004 07:35 PM
What does it cost to have that done. I'm getting a little tired of foot shifting and lossing some ET.
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matt sterbator
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posted November 23, 2004 07:42 PM
quote:
Your kidding right? It's very apparent that you do not understand how undercutting will critically weaken an already poor design.
Oh, I understand perfectly. I'm just not out on some CRUSADE to spread the word against a modification that has gone alot longer than even STOCK transmissions. Basically, it's not any more of a ticking time bomb than a STOCK transmission.
quote:
Your better off replacing the gears w/ OEM than undercutting. What is it about this you do not understand?
Modified STOCK gears does not mean "Stronger".
Now where oh where did I ever say or try to argue this point ? I didn't
quote:
In regards to STOCK trans being "proven" to be more subjuct to breakage......Can you state where in this forum or others this has been noted?
Right now, off the top of my head I know of THREE transmissions breaking. Yours, KriSSten's and a customer/friend of KCadby (I think his name was John). KriSSten's was stock, yours was undercut, and I'm not 100% about KCadby's but I believe it was a stock transmission to, again not sure about that... I just did a search, 3rd gear went on that bike, but can't confirm if it was stock or not, really doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that there isn't sufficient evidence to suggest that undercutting a 12R trans means certain death and that it's just a "tick tock" away from destruction at any given moment.
quote:
I've been on since 2000 and have not seen any such issue other than CLUTCH.
Now that you mention it, me neither. I guess they really sold you on those billet gears though (great product by the way, just a little out of reach of the wallet at the time).
It's like me telling you that you're gonna get a flat tire, it's just a tick of the clock away from happening. If it never happens to you, I'm just overly cautious, if it does, I told you so
quote:
BTW...this is not a "Crusade". I'm willing to provide accurate info on issues if I feel I can.
It doesn't get any more accurate than the fact that there are no more undercut trans breaking than stock ones.
quote:
You can go ahead and keep you head in the sand on this one, I do not wish any failures on you Good Luck.
My head was buried ears deep in 12R motor/transmission last week. YOU'RE the one that just doesn't get it
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matt sterbator
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posted November 23, 2004 07:43 PM
quote:
quote:
Everything breaks sooner or later!
Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winnner!!!!
you guys are crazy! I have over 8500 miles, and oh about 2500 dragstrip passes on my tranny!! 2 years ago I had it undercut, still no problems. I noticed a difference with the undercut. it shifted smoother and more solid after being undercut. I have abused my tranny probably worse then almost anyone on this board, and it still keeps going. It will not last forever, like anything! but it is built strong, in my opinion!
Mad Mike.
...and this is the reason I'm not watching my CLOCK about this trans with a piped stock bike and a 125lb rider
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psycho1122
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posted November 23, 2004 07:49 PM
Would you call failure of third gear in a stocker, failure of third gear after it was undercut "crazy" or Fluke?? Just because you have not had a failure (YET), does not mean you can't or won't.
I experienced a failure and I took preventative measures with Billet Gears to keep it from happening again.
I will take the "Opinion" of a known and accomplished transmission builder...."the gears in the ZX12 are some of the weakest gears he's seen Big K put in a Bike".."the design is very poor".
I would stongly recommend the Billet Gears avaliable at
(www.robinsonindustriesinc.com)
If you plan to "abuse" your transmission.
Just a suggestion
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psycho1122
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posted November 23, 2004 08:06 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 23 Nov 2004 20:06
quote:
...and this is the reason I'm not watching my CLOCK about this trans with a piped stock bike and a 125lb rider
And this is the bike you have ALREADY lost 3rd gear with....
I would also have to disagree w/ MadMike re; total abuse.
I would have to say that repeated track day sessions on a 2.25 mile course, accelerating/decelerating (all in third gear)w/ a 1270 engine, thousands of canyon road miles (primarily in third gear), "some" Drag racing and top speed runs included can put quite a load on the trans. also.
I feel the Load/unload at the track days did the most to fatigue 3rd. gear.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
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posted November 23, 2004 08:20 PM
I feel the exchange has been good.
There is plenty of info here to allow other members to make a Judgement call on how to address the trans. in thier 12's.
Mine is just a suggestion based on the experience I had, and what I learned. I concider the $4,000 I paid to fix the engine after the failure "Stupid Tax". I would hate to see anther member go through the same thing. Back when I pulled the trans to have it "undercut", my $ would have been better spent on Billy's gears (less than $700). Hindsight is always 20/20.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 23, 2004 09:15 PM
quote:
quote:
...and this is the reason I'm not watching my CLOCK about this trans with a piped stock bike and a 125lb rider
And this is the bike you have ALREADY lost 3rd gear with....
I would also have to disagree w/ MadMike re; total abuse.
I would have to say that repeated track day sessions on a 2.25 mile course, accelerating/decelerating (all in third gear)w/ a 1270 engine, thousands of canyon road miles (primarily in third gear), "some" Drag racing and top speed runs included can put quite a load on the trans. also.
I feel the Load/unload at the track days did the most to fatigue 3rd. gear.
I agree, your harder then hell on third gear! I do believe the billet gear's will help and they are just added insurance. I might get them? but it really depends on what else I am going to do this off season. i do like the idea about changing the 1st gear and it not being so tall.
I believe for the HP we are making the tranny is fine, but when you go to the extreme! anything can happen. and the statement about these are the worst gears big K has ever done. I hear stuff like that about everything but the head's on our motors! and I just laugh and say yep that is why it is the quickest, fastest, most powerfull stock motor kawi has ever made huh. full of the weakest/worst parts ever. I really just have to laugh at these guys and say thanks! you have to remember we are not running Pro Mod with these motors.
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matt sterbator
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posted November 24, 2004 01:34 AM
quote:
Would you call failure of third gear in a stocker, failure of third gear after it was undercut "crazy" or Fluke?? Just because you have not had a failure (YET), does not mean you can't or won't.
It also doesn't mean you WILL, which is exactly what you are suggesting, tick tock, remember.
quote:
I experienced a failure and I took preventative measures with Billet Gears to keep it from happening again.
...and had the funds been available to do the same with this bike, we'd have gotten billet gears as well. As it is, less was spent on a brand new transmission that's been worked by a very reputable company who's done work for many other members here and are perfectly happy and none too worried. My whole point is that a failure can happen to anyone at anytime.
quote:
I will take the "Opinion" of a known and accomplished transmission builder...."the gears in the ZX12 are some of the weakest gears he's seen Big K put in a Bike".."the design is very poor".
Yes, almost exactly like it reads on his website. I agree that the billet gears are great and alot stronger than stockers. You really were "sold" on those Robinson gears, lol.
quote:
I would stongly recommend the Billet Gears avaliable at
(www.robinsonindustriesinc.com)
If you plan to "abuse" your transmission.
Just a suggestion
Oh I already have the website in my favorites
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matt sterbator
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posted November 24, 2004 01:58 AM
quote:
And this is the bike you have ALREADY lost 3rd gear with....
Yes, about 150 "learning" passes footshifted at the drag strip. This failure was unfortunate, but not a complete suprise.
quote:
I would also have to disagree w/ MadMike re; total abuse.
I would have to say that repeated track day sessions on a 2.25 mile course, accelerating/decelerating (all in third gear)w/ a 1270 engine, thousands of canyon road miles (primarily in third gear), "some" Drag racing and top speed runs included can put quite a load on the trans. also.
I feel the Load/unload at the track days did the most to fatigue 3rd. gear.
Then maybe, just maybe... this was the cause of your failure, and not the trans itself. That's alot of abuse for 3rd gear by a very high powered and heavy motorcycle.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted November 24, 2004 06:57 AM
So how much does it cost to have the trans undercut?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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MadMike
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posted November 24, 2004 08:13 AM
It really depends on where you get it done. R and D cost around 700-800.
and Fast By Gast, will cost you around 400. I had mine done by FBG.
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canadamaxxer
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posted November 24, 2004 08:47 AM
Which gear is breaking: the input or the output? I looked on the Robinson Industries website and they only list a billet 3rd gear output gear for the 12R. Isn't the input gear in this case the one that is undercut? I am asking out of complete ignorance....I looked in the service manual and it is very poor and I have not had one of these transmissions apart....yet.
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