quote:easily .5 (leaner) around 100...up to 1 to 1.5 leaner at WOT during 5th gear highway pulls with the wideband.
Comparing the wideband on the bike...to the wideband on the dyno (both in the dyno room)..they were dead on. ____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted January 02, 2004 09:54 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 2 Jan 2004 22:00
From the Quotes above, You stated that you experienced a "Lean Condition" on the road at high speed. But first I will respond to these Rebutals....
quote:
Thats ridiculous. What about humidity..altitude..air temperature..air filter modification (or removal), air quality, fuel quality and octane, misfires, fouled plugs, etc etc.
Let's start w/ the easy ones....I did state "Conditions seen by the SENSORS".....Barometeric Pressure SENSOR, Intake Air Temperature SENSOR and is it not true that "Mean" air temp is affected by Humidity?!
As to fuel system related issues...You did not indicate to us that you had any. If you are using special fuels...it is in your best interest to adjust your base map accordingly. If your bike misfires...why would you ride it? I would locate the source of the misfire before I continue to determine why I have a Lean condition at speed. Fouled plugs?? Pretty much a thing of the past with these bikes. Your FI light would go off to point to a sensor failure that would explain fouled plugs. The ECU's success at giving you adaquate fuel at high speeds depends on the base map.
quote:
I already told you the bike(s) were stock..had the kleen air been disconnected..that wouldnt be stock anymore.
So your answer is "NO, the Cleen-Air system was not disconnected" O.K. then! This will ARTIFICIALLY lean out your SIN wave a/f graph.
quote:the 4th gear pull showed an af range of 10 - 11...and on the road in 5th..it showed 11 - 12 (and on spray...11.5 - 13)
How can you compare a 4th gear dyno pull sitting still to a 5th gear roll on or steady state throttle on the road? On the road in 5th showing 11-12:1 does not indicate a "lean condition" by most tuning standards. Of course, spray throws in a completely new set of rules.
I said...
quote: My tuner will put the bike in the highest gear possible (dependind on the limiter)
quote:
it should be run in the closest 1:1 gear..running in 6th is somewhat silly.
It is clear that you have not grasped the simple concept of this advantage.
I said..
quote: to allow the sniffer the maximum amount of time to get an accurate sample. This makes a big difference when making a map that works in the real world.
quote:
Id bet you that if you take any of your bikes..and tune them however you like..that at 5th gear at 150mph (or whatever high speed mph you choose) the A/F ratio is going to be HIGHER than what it showed at the same gear and mph on the dyno by a half up to a full point.
YCIS...I have already checked this out back when I tested the Hans Snorkle. You are indicating that you experience your a/f ratio go from 11-12:1 to 12-13:1 (for example) which would be leaner. I experience the opposite, exccept for when the Hans was on the bike....It allowed the airbox pressure to drop as speed increased. The ECU would "See" this and LEAN the bike out accordingly.
I said..
quote:You also indicated that you held the bike at a "Constant Speed in 5th gear"...you can't compare that to an a/f graph on a dj250 dyno chart, it is a wide open throttle in 4th gear graph.
quote:
Never said I did....I compared the 5th gear (held) to my 5th gear (wfo run) to see if the "held" A/F ratio would be any different...it wasnt.
I mis-understood what you were expressing.
quote:Now please understand me YCIS...I am doing my best to provide accurate info that I have assembled over the last few years of testing. Others have observed the same results as I have.
quote:
Im not saying you arent giving your OPINION...but like all opinions...they vary. It cant be a fact or law if someone can prove it "doesnt always happen that way". I dont believe the ECU can compensate enough for high MPH Ram Air..and I used the wideband to prove it(and to tune for nitrous). I can put it on again for more proof if you desire. Would you like me to use multiple bikes this time? What exactly would it take? Its just simply not possible to recreate a real world environment in a dyno room and assume that all other external factors will be "taken care of by the ECU".
Like I said earlier in this thread....If KHI did not properly program the ECU in conjunction w/ the sensors to give the proper amount of fuel under a "Ram Affect", 12's and other Ram-Air'd bikes would burn pistons at sustained high speeds all over the place! At this time, even the new FI bikes are not "Closed Loop" systems. They don't need to be to provide EXCELLENT fueling to the modern sportbike engine. Looks like you should provide your findings to KHI and apply for an engineering job to help them sort out this "High Speed Lean Out Issue".
Think about this...On a ZX11, KHI would "vent" the float bowls to the airbox. This would equalize airbox/float bowl pressure to prevent "High Speed Lean Out". You mean to tell me that KHI has "overlooked" this important nessessity on the 12's FI system?! You mean to say that a FI bike MUST have a "wideband" to properly fuel under the "Ram Condition"??!?
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted January 02, 2004 10:26 PM
You're right Psycho, I was just trying to say...'read his comments a little closer, without bias." I should have just come out and said it that way so that it would be more clear. Sorry man.
And your right, it's not "being defensive", but it can look that way when some of the answers are half-cocked.
My thoughts:
I agree with you that the ECU is "designed" to add/subtract from our 'base map', but hopefully we can at least agree that it has a limited amount of sampling it can do.
Sounds like you are leaning towards the "the ECU is fully capable of adjusting for ALL conditions provided the base map is very close to where it should be".
Sounds like Brian is saying "the ECU has limitations".
I personally think it's only logical to say that the slower your RPM's climb, the more accurate the A/F readout is going to be. I mean, that's just basic physics. (dyno test, OR 'on the road' 02 sensor)
IMHO, It's just too limiting to say that "the only thing to cause a lean condition is a lean base map" (or incorrect settings in your map).
Even if you discount the factors that Brian mentions (humidity, fuel, etc), how can you discount his REAL WORLD experience? He's had it on the road, he's even done what amounts to a double-blind type of study. Apples to Apples.
Our ECU is only like 8 or 16 bit isn't it? (in 2000, 2001) Seems like they made it a higher bit ECU in 2002, or 2003. (more corrections to mapping per second, at least to my recollection)
You're also right, if I haven't said it already, that running 4th gear on the dyno is a bunch shorter than running the bike out in 4th gear on the road. I completely agree with that.
It sounds like you each have a personal experience that just happens to contradict each other!
1. Psycho says ONLY 3 things cause a lean condition.
2. Brian is saying he's double checked his A/F on dyno and on the road and his measurements are deadnuts on with each other, with the EXCEPTION of the bike leaning out in top gears, top rpm, ON THE ROAD. ie. the ECU is not able to compensate enough 'for him' on the road at top speed.
The logical conclusion is that the added ram-air is what is causing that.
A second logical conclusion is that the Air Pressure sensor alone, in the ram air system, or where-ever it's at up there, CANNOT provide accurate readings on Brians bike at higher speeds. Could be other bikes too. We would need more testing to be sure.
HOWEVER, I will say this, maybe it will help broaden the picture a bit. Please take a minute to fully digest the story below.
The design of the exhaust pipe can make a difference as well.
If any of you doubt this, I would urge you to feel free to ask Brock Davidson his thoughts about it I believe he has a degree in either physics or physical engineering and we've done testing together on header designs.
We have had a handful of different pipes on my bike. The one that gave the most horsepower on the dyno IS NOT the one that makes me fastest at the track. IN FACT, now get this, one particular pipe that gave me the best dyno HP, also made me SLOWER by 1.5mph - 2mph on the 1/4 mile CONSISTENTLY. And you can be sure that I race enough to know whether a pipe is helping or hurting me!! 1.5 - 2mph is HUGE.
The only difference is the ram-air effect!!
To be absolutely certain, and honestly, it's because Brock didn't believe me and thought it was my riding, he had a named PROSTAR racer in NewEngland do the testing as well and he got the SAME RESULTS.
Subsequently, when that "particular pipe" was modified to be like other pipes in a certain area, the MPH came back with only something like a 1.5HP difference at peak than before the modification, and a better mid-range to boot.
One point about this that I specifically want to make is that the 'bad' pipe was not able to handle the added air-flow.
I'd bet that an O2 sensor would have showed that ON THE ROAD.
Also, it shows how a DYNO READING A/F can say one thing, but on the road, with real 100mph air pressure, ......REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT. Maybe not always! But in this case, it was.
Also, consider that maybe my bike was leaning or richening out with this 'bad' pipe,.........why didn't the ECU correct for it. I don't know. Should it have? I don't know. We can only speculate.
Seems to me that there was too much back-pressure at speed, on the road, so that would have caused exhaust gases to remain in the cylinder a little bit. Thinking about it now, I'm thinking that the ECU has no method to correct for this. Is that right?!?!
Brian, what kind of pipe are you running??? PM me if you like. I don't want to talk bad about brands here.
This is an interesting discussion guys,........keep putting facts and data on the table!!
quote:
So your answer is "NO, the Cleen-Air system was not disconnected" O.K. then! This will ARTIFICIALLY lean out your SIN wave a/f graph.
A very good point there Psycho. After all, that IS the job of the KLEEN system.
However, I'm not sure if Brian ever mentioned whether his testing was at WOT, or at partial throttle, but the KLEEN is NOT in effect during WOT.
So, if he is testing at WOT, the KLEEN cannot be to blame, but if he is at PARTIAL throttle, then by all means, it would contribute to lean-ness seen by an O2 sensor.
At anything less than WOT, on the road, the road speed will obviously affect what the O2 sensor sees. (and differently than when on the dyno too, I'd say, because the air-box is at ambient pressure.)
posted January 03, 2004 12:09 AM
Ok...I never at any time claimed I was suffering from a "lean condition" I merely said the bike was .5 to 1.5 points LEANER than it was in the dyno room.
At no time...during my wideband testing...even on spray..was my bike ever over 14.7:1....in fact it was never over 14:1
My whole point behind this is that the ECU cannot completely compensate for higher speed ram air conditions...i ran the bike over and over and over with the wideband..and in comparison to the dyno room A/F ratio...it was always LEANER on the road. however IN THE DYNO ROOM...both gauges (the sensor from the wideband on the bike..and the sensor from the sniffer in the dyno) were equal.
as for the kleen air mod.....my bike has been dynoed completely stock...and with numerous mods (including the kleen air removal)...its always been "wavy" lean in some places...rich in others.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted January 03, 2004 04:17 AM
Guys,
I can offer this info.
I recently installed an EGT and the highest temps recorded have been at a constant cruise speed (rolling off the throttle in an attempt to be economical) of about 120kph in 6th gear.
You are most likely to hole a piston whilst cruising!!!
I guess the high temp is caused by a lean mix? (up to 800 deg C was recorded) (I also have sump suck happening)
At no other time during the days ride did the temp exceed or even get close to this level, even full throttle runs up to 250kph.
My bike has a Serpent system and a downloaded map.
I just don't understand why these bikes don't have a closed loop system.
SHIT, even the cheapestest of new cars has one, what is going on?
NOS Rob
____________
NOS Rob
'02 Blue ZX12R NOS and extensions
'99 NOS stretched Bandit 1200S
posted January 03, 2004 06:44 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 4 Jan 2004 15:14
BA
The Vacuum Switch Valve is OPEN when vacuum is low. This means that at WOT the valve is OPEN. It was very interesting to see on our final Dyno run how my first hose I used started to collapse as the rpm's rised above 9000. Of course I replaced it w/ a re-enforced braided hose.
As for my comment on the 3 reasons a "lean out" at high speed could occur;
I was basing that on a 12 that has a properly functioning fuel system. It is a completely separate funtioning system that the ECU has no control over. Any changes made to the system you have to find a way to compesate for them.
What I mean by "Base" map is the map you program into your PC or EMS etc. The BASE map in the ECU does not change.
If a sensor has failed, you will get an FI light code. But if a sensor is not located or hooked up properly....for example: Your Intake Air Pressure sensor needs a vacuum hose hooked up to it from the Throttle Bodies, if it has come off or was not hooked up properly....It will not send an acurate voltage reading to the ECU. This could cause a "Lean out at speed" w/o a FI light code.
Obviously, the ECU cannot "know" about poor maintainance or modifications to your system...i.e. Air filters, snorkels or pipes. That's where the Map (in the PC) comes into play. You have to tell it.
So my point was.....If all these things are in good working order AND you have adjusted you map to compensate for modifications, the ECU will handle the fueling under a RAM condition. Basically, it (The ECU) will add or subrtact from your PC map.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted January 03, 2004 07:26 AM
NOS Rob - Ain't many cars out there that have an operating range of 1000-14000 rpm. Or can go through that range is just a second or two. We've seen the manufacturers step up with 32 bit ECUs, upgraded ignition sensors (more trigger points on the rotor) and other steps along the way. I don't know if any O2 sensor will be able to keep up with the rapid changes that a motorcycle engine can make, as compared to any production automobile engine.
One thing I could see is closed loop operation during crusing, and dropping back to open loop during accelleration or when operating outside of a certain band. Most cars will drop out of closed loop operation when accellerating under full throttle, so there's no reason why a motorcycle couldn't do the same thing, with the bike running closed loop in a band that goes from idle to 60% rpm. If they wanted to get really sophisticated, they could even have the ECU measure things like rate-of-opening of the throttle and calculate when to drop to open loop based on that.
It's always a carrot-and-stick proposition. The stick is the EPA. The carrot? Umm...sales in California?
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted January 03, 2004 07:42 AM
Great contribution to the thread swft!!
I tried to touch on this concept earlier in the the thread. My tuner has also noticed this w/ the lamda on the dyno. That's why we run the 12 in 6th gear.
I would not be surprised if the KHI engineers have the ECU look at TP in conjunction w/ the Intake Air Pressure sensor to help w/ overall timing and fueling at high speed.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted January 03, 2004 08:04 AM
Thanks Psycho.
Cars have had 20 years to get to where they are now. '84 was pretty much the last year you saw any widespread use of carbs on cars, with most having TBI, and in a few cases, TPI. A modern car's ECU has a three dimensional map that gets inputs from everything except maybe the mood of your mother-in-law. Maybe.
What would you guys think of a bike where you could limit it's performance to suit the rider? Ie; 'learner' mode for novice or casual riders, 'expert' mode for experienced riders. Maybe even stuff like 'weather' mode for when you are caught out in the rain. You like wheelies? No reason why the ECU couldn't map in the best ignition parameters for that...
posted January 03, 2004 09:24 AM
Edited By: BA on 3 Jan 2004 09:34
Point made Brian......I think I mis-quoted you somewhere.
I understood that your point was to be .5 or a 'point' LEANER, but I probably put "lean condition" in my posts somewhere.
sorry bout that....
Psych. are you sure the vacuum switch operates as you said? Assuming all is hooked up as KHI intended..
The reason that I ask is that I tested mine, as I assume you did as well, and I used a hand vacuum pump as well, and I swear that it was designed to suck through that air during part-throttle conditions and be inoperative with zero vacuum, ie. WOT.
Maybe I'm wrong, I may have to go hit the garage and test it again!
posted January 03, 2004 10:22 AM
I understand what everyone is saying...I just dont believe (and can prove it for my bike) it to be true.
I do not think the ECU can properly accomodate for high speed conditions.
This is also why those 9/10ths guys in miami richen the shit out of the bike with the PC3/R (or yosh) and get more performance out of the bike on the big end.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted January 04, 2004 09:36 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 4 Jan 2004 09:37
It is not "aginst what I said"
I have said REPEATEDLY in this thread and others....The ECU has a permanent base map in it...it never changes. It will add or subtract from that map to compensate for conditions "SEEN" by sensors in the system.
Stock maps are designed to meet emission standards and are lean down low and at part throttle cruising and a tad rich up top to ensure reliability.
Now.....If you add a PC or EMS etc. You effectively change the ECU's constantly changing signals (due to sensor input) going to the Injectors.
With this being FACT......MOST maps developed on a DJ250 that I've seen have been way too lean (especially on modified 12's). So this will lean out the signal going to your Injectors from the ECU. I can see very clearly why alot of 12 owners w/ DJ250 maps will see performance improvements by richening the map.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted January 04, 2004 09:45 AM
Let me add one more tidbit.....
mrsantafe who had a tuner on a DJ250 spend 6 HOURS! on his map, made shure the tuner created a map that was in the 12.8-1 a/f range in the upper rpm band at WOT.
He was SHOCKED to see that the map was on average .5 leaner on the MJP w/ 4 gas analyzer. This is one reason behind the secret of tuneing the 12 in 6th gear on a dyno.
Read about his results in DRAGBIKE ZONE........
You my be expieriencing the same situation.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted January 04, 2004 10:54 AM
again..it wasnt a problem for me because I KNEW it was going to be leaner in the higher speed/rpm ranges.
You just spent two days telling me that the ECU can compensate for high speed ram air...now you tell me it cant if you have a custom map....that sure wasnt one of your "only three things that can cause a lean condition"
So basically..you are telling me what I already know and already said earlier. At high speed..the bike WILL be leaner than it is in a dyno room..and the ECU cannot compensate for it..hence you need to add more fuel.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted January 04, 2004 02:56 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 4 Jan 2004 15:08
YCIS.....Please re-read this quote...
quote:
I have said REPEATEDLY in this thread and others....The ECU has a permanent base map in it...it never changes. It will add or subtract from that map to compensate for conditions "SEEN" by sensors in the system.
Can you COMPREHEND what this statement is saying?
How about this next quote....
quote:
Now.....If you add a PC or EMS etc. You effectively change the ECU's constantly changing signals (due to sensor input) going to the Injectors.
I'ts hard to imagine that you can't grasp this simple process.
Do you really beleive that KHI would "OVERLOOK" the nessessity of extra fuel under "Ram"??!! The ECU constantly recieves signals from the sensors and changes (adds/subtracts fuel) from it's base map. Then sends this change to the Injectors. IF YOU HAVE A PC OR EMS INBETWEEN THE ECU AND INJECTORS, you are altering that signal. If your map in the PC is too lean....you will lean out the signal comming from the ECU.
I am tired of trying to help you w/ this concept that you can't seem to grasp. Obviously, you have not determined why you have a Lean-Out on the road vs. dyno. I don't have it...I'm shure most 12's w/ nice maps don't have it either.
Good Luck
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted January 04, 2004 03:18 PM
And I will repeat...your "blanket" comments about the ECU are WRONG...you keep adding comments like "oh well this is all assuming nothing else has changed..and all this happens at sea level..in a vaccum...on a perfect day...with a stock bike...etc etc."
Its ridiculous....who tunes a completely stock bike?
posted January 04, 2004 03:18 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 4 Jan 2004 15:20
Here's another qoute of mine.....Please try to READ it.....
quote:
As for my comment on the 3 reasons a "lean out" at high speed could occur;
I was basing that on a 12 that has a properly functioning fuel system. It is a completely separate funtioning system that the ECU has no control over. Any changes made to the system you have to find a way to compesate for them.
What I mean by "Base" map is the map you program into your PC or EMS etc. The BASE map in the ECU does not change.
If a sensor has failed, you will get an FI light code. But if a sensor is not located or hooked up properly....for example: Your Intake Air Pressure sensor needs a vacuum hose hooked up to it from the Throttle Bodies, if it has come off or was not hooked up properly....It will not send an acurate voltage reading to the ECU. This could cause a "Lean out at speed" w/o a FI light code.
Obviously, the ECU cannot "know" about poor maintainance or modifications to your system...i.e. Air filters, snorkels or pipes. That's where the Map (in the PC) comes into play. You have to tell it.
So my point was.....If all these things are in good working order AND you have adjusted you map to compensate for modifications, the ECU will handle the fueling under a RAM condition. Basically, it (The ECU) will add or subrtact from your PC map.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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